Black Magic Vegas Support - NOT

GaryAshorn wrote on 1/9/2009, 3:38 PM

Well, for the past week I have been e-mailing with the BMD support. They have been straight up with me on my questions. No issues with me and BMD. You all know what I was looking for.... Decklink SP or Intensity Pro support to cover past component and todays HD needs. I asked them what the Vegas support status was and got what others have said here. Beta drivers for 8A and 8B. Does not work with 8C. I asked about the Intenisty Pro and threw in a question on the Decklink SP. All previous comments back were as above and working on still. Here is the last e-mail I got three hours ago. Jan. 9, 2009 at noon from BMD support.

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"Gary,

I just ended a conversation with My Director of Technical Support. He’s telling me that while our beta drivers for 8.0a & 8.0B are still available in our latest driver releases we’ve actually stoped advertising any support for Vegas at all. We are still working with Sony to try and get our drivers finalized and up and running, but at this point it may be in your best interest to look for another solution.

You will be limited to Uncompressed captures with our products in Vegas. There will be no other codecs available to you for capture with our boards. Again we do have our Motion Jpeg codec, but that’s broken in Vegas at this time.

As far the limitations of using the Decklink SP card, it really comes down to the differences of the cards in general. The Intensity Pro will allow for HDMI input (the SP will not) and will handle some HD content (the SP will not).

At the end of the day regardless of the card you chose, you will be limited to Uncompressed captures in formats that are supported by the card you chose, using Beta drivers for a version of Vegas that is not current.

Hope this information was helpful."
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So I guess my next question is whose card do I go with if I want something other than Uncompressed file formats? Nothing wrong with a good full file uncompressed format except for the drive space. I loved my MJPEG in my old FAST VM/DPR, yeah yeah yeah I know, get to the future. But it worked. So if I stay with Vegas and want something to cover the range of formats I really need I have a hard decision to make on input card options. Assuming I keep my existing decks for clients and want good capturing, I need to figure out the best option or considerations from you guys. You "FB&G" guys I want your thoughts too.

As for SONY tech support and I noted an item in the other thread I may want to hassle SONY on that one too in a separate thread. Not a friendly one either. Thanks

Gary

Comments

Coursedesign wrote on 1/9/2009, 4:15 PM

The reasons why BMD can't get the proper interfacing to Vegas have been described here in the past.

To my knowledge, no other card manufacturer even tried.

I've been using a BMD Decklink Extreme card with Vegas since 2004, it is interesting to note that the driver situation is the same today as five years ago...

But, you don't have to capture directly into Vegas. I used the Decklink capture utility and just logged the SDI input to disk. Not the same thing for several reasons, but it's either that or switch to Premiere Pro (blech).

GaryAshorn wrote on 1/9/2009, 4:30 PM

Don't get me wrong, I am not blaming BMD. That is the point. SONY is not customer oriented. I know all the threads here on BMD and that is what I was commenting on. No movement since as you said 2004. That is sad and you have to ask why. I have been dealing with electronic and electrical systems now in the industrial world for 35 years and in the video stuff to some varing degrees since the early mid 90s. One thing I do smell in all these years is when is the customer important and SONY does not think we are. And I say this from various SONY products I have and have had to deal with them on. I posted this reply from BMD to show just that. Plus to actually make a decision as you said to move onto another editor? I don't want to. I would prefer my older system work flow but that is not feasible in todays world so I am staying with Vegas and trying to find my best work path. I can use the Intensity Pro just as they told me uncompressed and it will work. Drives are getting cheaper. Is that the best way, I don't know. I have not been looking in that direction seriously until now. So it is a question of is that a good path.

Gary

farss wrote on 1/9/2009, 4:35 PM

"....but at this point it may be in your best interest to look for another solution."

The on again off again dramas with SDI capture and Vegas is one of the factors that sent me looking for another solution and that was with just vanilla uncompressed 10bit YUV. Ppro has worked flawlessly for me with this. File sizes are kind of big but 1TB HDD are very cheap so that really doesn't concern me.
The files captured using Ppro seem to open just fine in Vegas.
To get the best out of them you need to process as 32bit and do the 32bit dance.
Ppro once you install the BMD drivers inherits the correct 8/10bit options for your sequence settings.

At one point in time SCS seemed to jump ship to the AJA cards claiming BMD were too much hassle with their changing drivers. How slack of BMD to keep enhancing their product. I had better things to do with my money than replace hardware plus my systems integrator doesn't support AJA cards.

Bob.

farss wrote on 1/9/2009, 4:39 PM

"So it is a question of is that a good path. "

If you're capturing from analog sources such as SP and intend going back out to SP you would really want 10bit capture if you're ingesting ungraded camera tapes and intend grading them. Also as I said below you need to work in 32bit as Vegas doesn't have a 10bit YUV pipeline.

Bob.

[r]Evolution wrote on 1/9/2009, 8:50 PM

Why can't you just use the BMD Capture Utility? (Decklink)
It should give you all the capture options you desire... then edit with the NLE of your choice.

GaryAshorn wrote on 1/11/2009, 10:34 AM

Yes, those are the options to just use BMD capture ability and then edit with Vegas or whatever. Uncompressed file sizes being large but certainly good. I suspect that is the direction I will choose. As noted drive prices are so low that it really is not as big a deal as days past. Certainly my 9gig SCSI Seagates at $1800 each from days past is not the problem any more. Even less than a year ago having a compression format directly in the editor capture was the preferred way. We have talked about this before.

My reason for posting was to see how people have changed their direction on capturing and editing. Particularly when it appears the multi format capturing cards such as BMD or others is not being fully supported within our editor of choice. So the work arounds or work flow choices change. Certainly evolving technoloy and their costs causes us to change. Since I have been waiting for the one method for BMD to work inside of Vegas is not going to happen, for now, then I am looking for the option. I was leaning to just what was suggested, just capture uncompressed and go from their. For my multi format needs that was always my preferred but then drive cost etc had limits. Today, not so much a limit but still I was looking for confermation from those who have traveled this bridge already. Thanks.

TheHappyFriar wrote on 1/11/2009, 11:37 AM

I've always treated capturing & editing as two separate things, so it's never bothered me to use a different app. When I was first testing Vegas I'd capture in Premiere on a Matrox RT 2500 & then edit in Vegas. I considered it no different then having to use a DVCPro VCR for DVCPro tapes & a BetaSP deck for BetaSP tapes.

GaryAshorn wrote on 1/11/2009, 3:29 PM

And that is my direction as well and I fully believe this is the direction to go. The convience of capturing within my editor that would perhaps provide me a helpful way to logging and managing my clips though is helpful. In my old FAST days I did just that, capturing from all the sources you mention at say 3:1 MJPEG, log the clips, names, sort it at the onset with a workflow I used and then edited from there. I can do this work flow to an extent since Vegas does uses a explorer window for access. The file sizes for various compression routines was the gotcha. But as said now with cheaper storage, that is not as big a deal.

I guess the question is Intensity Pro or a Decklink SP. For me the question USED to be for deck control. Now since I will forgo the use of frame accurate control for mixing NLE and Tapes, the Intensity Pro would be my best bet I think.
Thanks
Gary

John_Cline wrote on 1/11/2009, 3:43 PM

I use the Intensity Pro to capture from all kinds of analog sources; VHS, S-VHS, 8mm, Hi-8, 3/4", Betacam and 1" Type-C. I usually capture uncompressed 4:2:2 YUV and process/edit in Vegas. It works great. Typically, the output format is for DVD and the 4:2:2 to 4:2:0 colorspace conversion looks SO MUCH better than starting with the DV 4:1:1 colorspace and ending up at 4:2:0.

[r]Evolution wrote on 1/11/2009, 4:23 PM

My Decklink Capture Utility lists lots of CoDecs/Formats... not just UnCompressed.
Since most of what I shoot and edit is DV... I usually capture, edit, and output DV. It even allows me to Capture via SDI from a BetaSP Deck to DV. It gives me total Deck Control via FireWire & RS422. I can then pull these files into Vegas, Premiere, FCP, or Avid with No Problem. I'm not sure how you would get your PTT from Vegas through Decklink to Tape if need be.

The only thing more I wish was there is the ability to capture on my PC to QT format.
- I simply prefer working with Quicktime Files but there is no way of capturing to QT on a PC.
(If anyone knows of a dependable way to capture to a QT file on a PC, pass on the info.)

As far as Monitoring my edit on an NTSC Monitor... I do not use the Decklink card so I don't know if this works or not. I have a few 'cheap' consumer miniDV camera's that stay hooked up to the workstations which are used for Playback, Capture, PTT, and NTSC Monitor via FireWire.

I'm not one that cares about Format, ColorSpace, Compressed, UnCompressed, or any of that. To me those are 'Buzz Words' and lots of times the guy with the most Technical Knowledge is NOT the guy that delivers the best edit... but if you can have both; awesome! Often times I will 'Saturate my Colors' a bit or add a 'Color Filter' or 'Look' to the Main Video Buss anyways. If it looks good on my Calibrated Monitor and the client is happy... I'm happy.

I don't have anyone asking for HD Delivery yet so I'm yet to work that into the equation.

I feel that BMD Support (and other Vendors) will help keep the hope alive for Vegas in the 'Professional' world.

-By the way... BMD does NOT support CS4 at this time either.

GaryAshorn wrote on 1/11/2009, 5:04 PM

Thanks guys and I will go with a BMD card. John, you mentioned the DV capturing and the color Space. I do not have an SDI card for my AJD659 or my UVW1800. I used to just take in component to my VM/DPR. That worked well, so I am guessing if I go with the Intensity Pro, that will still be a good path. Can't do deck control but I am just going to log in the full tape and pick clips from there. I do see there is another card on the block, the Decklink Studio with RS422. Difference is no HDMI. So if that is not needed it could be a good card. However as I start to go to newer cameras, the HDMI could be a good path. comments?
Gary

John_Cline wrote on 1/11/2009, 9:18 PM

Jay Gladwell:

I got your private message from the forum, but my reply bounced back saying there was no such user. Here is my reply regarding the Intensity Pro card:

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The Intensity Pro can only capture digitally via HDMI input (like from a Sony V1u camcorder.) When recording live, most HD camcorders with HDMI connections output full 1920x1080 4:2:2 directly from the camera head, _before_ the rescaling to 1440x1080 and the HDV compression to MPEG2. The Intensity Pro records either uncompressed YUV (at 120/megabytes/second) or MJPEG. The resulting files look MUCH, MUCH better than HDV, but only if it's recorded live and not after the fact off the recorded tape.

The Intensity Pro also has composite, s-video and component analog inputs and it samples these inputs at 4:2:2 and records either uncompressed YUV or MJPEG in both PAL & NTSC. It can record 1920x1080i using the component inputs. It also records analog audio at 48k 24-bit stereo.

Basically, it records everything at 4:2:2.
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farss wrote on 1/11/2009, 10:35 PM

If it's any help I'm just finishing off an urgent job captured from DB using a J30 into a Decklink card . Vegas 8.0b works just fine with the card. My only gripe is that for some reason the audio comes in as 16/48 and it should be 24/48K. Not too certain about V8.0b and getting all the audio tracks either. Seem to recall some issues there.

This urgent job is a good example of how the technical stuff does matter. The recently shot DB looks pristine as always. The older SP material that it's intercut with looks like it's been captured from a composite feed as DV. The titles look like shite. You would probably not notice if it wasn't for the rest looking so perfect. On top of that of course the SP footage has the unequal black bars on the sides of the frame. If it wasn't so urgent I'd probably make some effort to fix these things as best I good.

Should mention for capturing SP if you've only got a SDI card consider the Convergent Design SD Connect. It'll go from composite to SDI with deck control or to DV and convert firewire deck control to 422 deck control. That's if they still make these magic boxes.

Bob.

JRZ wrote on 1/12/2009, 12:55 PM

Excuse me for butting in here, but what exactly doesn't work in 8.0c that does in 8.0b? Is it all machne control via decklink? I ask, because I'm using a MultiBridge Pro which I installed under 8.0b, and as near as I can tell, it's working fine in 8.0c...However, I do not use deck controls...Is that the issue? If I'm missing something here, I can roll the machine back...

Thanks!
JRZ

farss wrote on 1/12/2009, 1:01 PM

I can't answer that one for you as I haven't installed 8.0c as 8.0b is working fine for me and 8.0c has an issue in other areas that I want to avoid for now.

Bob.

GaryAshorn wrote on 1/12/2009, 6:11 PM

These are all interesting and good points. Obviously trying to not OVER BUY a card I do not need. The Multibridge Pro would be the end all unit similar to a MOTU unit. But then more $$$. However, if it works and works well, that would beat something less $$ but does not work well. I have been talking more with the BMD tech people and provided them my system setup and they commented that it had not been tested and was considered a high end gaming ability MB because it supported SLI, which I do not run. But it should work I think for most BMD cards. The issue of versions 8b and 8c may be resouce handling as that was the one thing the BMD tech was concerned with on how the different mother boards are viewed. Just a note.

I did just upgrade my new machine from 8b to 8c. Normally I leave the earlier version available and install the newer versions separate. I messed, when it asked if I wanted to upgrade I said yes and should have said no and then it would have let me install it to a new location? I don't remember how I had done that before. But I usually always end up going to the latest versions.

Glad to hear someone is using the latest version with a BMD unit such as the Multibridge Pro. What type system is that connected to and OS please? Thank you.

Gary

GaryAshorn wrote on 1/12/2009, 6:12 PM

Oh Bob, I forgot to ask. What is it about 8c that does not work for you that does in 8c? Thank you.

Gary

GregFlowers wrote on 1/12/2009, 6:46 PM

What about using Cineform NEO HD to capture? They advertise support for live capturing HDMI through the BlackMagic Intensity card into the Cineform codec at 1920 x 1080 10-bit 4:2:2. Cost $499 though. The recently discontinued NEO HDV used to do live capturing though HDMI 1440 x 1080 4:2:2 for about 1/2 the price. Shouldn't have to do that work around in the first place but just thought I'd mention it.

GaryAshorn wrote on 1/12/2009, 7:12 PM

Greg, yes that is another method and the reason for asking so thanks. Wish it could be an all one stop shop and edit deal but Vegas doesn't seem to want to play. I have not looked at that card though, so I will check it out and go back and recheck the convergence models again as well. It has been a while since I looked at them.

Gary

GregFlowers wrote on 1/12/2009, 7:31 PM

And for that $499 you could probably build a nice multi-terabyte RAID, capture unconcompressed, and convert to a lossless smaller codec like Lagarith, a motion jpec codec that Vegas plays friendly with, or the built in Cineform codec that comes with Vegas. Still, more work and money than you should have to expend.

JRZ wrote on 1/13/2009, 10:03 AM

Gary:

This is a custom built system with an Intel 3210 AH-LC motherboard, Intel Xeon 3350 quad core processor, 4Gb RAM (for future 64 bit OS), Adaptec 5405 SAS/SATA raid controller with 1.8TB raid for HD, BlackMagic compatible video adapter, and WinXP Professional on a seperate system drive. All mounted in a Chenbro server chasis. The system works very nicely, with the 4, 1Gig drives set up as a raid 0, I get excellent throughput for HD capture and playback via the MultiBridge Pro.

Cheers!
JRZ

farss wrote on 1/13/2009, 1:35 PM

Having just captured a digibeta tape using Vegas and my Decklink card I regret to report that Vegas is a disaster with this combo. In the end I had to use Ppro CS3 to encode. The whole sorry saga is in this thread.

If you want to persist using Vegas for this I'd highly recommend checking your output on a CRT. I have a truly horrible suspicion some time ago I sent a client material that was a mess because I didn't realise Vegas still had this problem and had not checked the DVD on a CRT, it looked fine on a LCD. The client has never come back to me.

Bob.

GaryAshorn wrote on 1/13/2009, 6:33 PM

Thanks for the system run down and to others on their approach to handling capturing. I think what I see is if I let say a BMD card etc capture to an uncompressed and then go to a codec or direct to Vegas I will be OK. Yes, extra steps but good quality and works. Using a Decklink inside of Vegas is maybe problematic and to me avoidance of a problem is worth taking the extra effort not going that route. So I think I will go with a card of choice, either Intensity Pro or Decklink Studio. I'd like the Multipro but not sure I can justify the cost. (Have to peak into the wallet)

As for my system, I mentioned what BMD techs said. He also said not to use the MB built in sound so I will add a good sound card. Here is my build:
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IBUYPOWER - Gamer Paladin 780-SC Modified

Case - Thermaltake Xaser VI Gaming Case w/420W Power Supply Black/Red

Power Supply - 800 Watt -- Power Supply Quad SLI Ready

Processor - Quad Core Intel Core 2 Quad Processor Q9450 (4x 2.66GHz/12MB L2 Cache/1333FSB)

Processor Cooling - INTEL Certified Liquid CPU Cooling System kit

Motherboard - SLI eVGA Nvidia nForce 780i SLI Chipset w/7.1 Sound, Gb LAN, S-ATA Raid, USB 2.0, 3-Way PCI-E MB 3-Way SLI

Memory - 4 GB [1 GB X4] DDR2-800 PC6400 Memory Module Corsair-Value or Major Brand

Video Card - NVIDIA GeForce 8800GT 512MB w/DVI + TV Out Video

Hard Drive - 500 GB HARD DRIVE [Serial-ATA-II, 3Gb, 7200 RPM, 16M Cache]

Hard Drive - 2 Samsung 1TB drives in RAID 0 on SATA

CD-RW/DVD-RW Drive – 20X Dual Format/Double Layer DVD±R/±RW + CD-R/RW Drive Black

DVD Bluray Burner - LG GGW-H20L

Sound Card - 3D Premium Surround Sound Onboard

Network Card - Onboard LAN Network (Gb or 10/100)

USB 2.0 Accessories - Built-in USB 2.0 Ports

Flash Media Reader/Writer - 12-In-1 Internal Flash Media Card Reader/Writer Black

Operation System - Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium 64-Bit

External Wireless Network Adapter - [Special !!!] Wireless 802.11g 54Mbps PCI Adapter
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thanks
Gary