Blu-ray: no chapter markers + avchd vs. mpeg2?

jason-duncan wrote on 10/9/2014, 4:30 PM

Hello,

I have two questions regarding outputting a HD project to BD. 1) I have no chapter breaks? 2) Rendered file is AVCHD (.m2t) not Movie Clip (.m2v) even when choosing mpeg-2 in the Template?

I have a 1920x1080 23.976 project that I ultimately want to output as mpeg-2 video, & pcm audio to a BD-25. I had a lot of color correcting and audio eq-ing on this project so to get a rough feel of how it looked and sounded on my tv and stereo system, I outputted the project to a standard dvd-5 as a test(s). Everything was great, including the chapter markers. Now HD time; For the BD Render Template I chose Main Concept mpeg-2 Blu-ray 1920x1080 24p 25mbps. I burned the BD via Architect and the disc had no audio, and no chapter breaks. I did check the rendered file in Architect via the Preview mode and there was no audio or chapter breaks there either, but I was so giddy to see this on BD as this is my first BD project. This rendered file is a Movie Clip, not AVCHD.

I did some research and I was able to get audio on my rendered file (from the Render Template I clicked Customize Template, then under the System tab I un-checked the "Save as separate elementary streams" box which then allowed me to Check the "Include audio stream" box under the Audio tab), but still no chapter breaks when I use the Preview mode in Architect. Now this file ended up being AVCHD. I read somewhere that AVCHD is sort of the poor-mans version of high definition. And reading in Vegas’ Tip section they recommended mpeg-2 anyways if you're outputting to BD.

I plan on adjusting the settings in Architect (changing the bit rate from 18.000 to 25.000, fps from 24P to 23.976P, audio from ac-3 to pcm).

Which leads me to my questions:

1) why don’t the chapter break come through when I render a HD file vs. dvd? (the
“save project markers in rendered media file" box under Metadata Options is Checked).

2) why does the rendered file end up being AVCHD vs. Movie Clip when I Check the "Save as separate elementary stream" box? When I render the project w/o this Checked, it ends up as a Movie File (but no audio).

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I don’t mind burning through a million dvd-5’s, but not BD-25’s.

Thank you,

Jason

Comments

john_dennis wrote on 10/9/2014, 6:23 PM

1) Have you tried pressing the Load Markers button in DVD Architect?

http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/40618156/2014-10-09%20Render%20Mainconcept/Load%20Markers.jpg

2) Set your DVD Architect Project Properties like this?
http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/40618156/2014-10-09%20Render%20Mainconcept/DVD%20Architect%20Project%20Properties.jpg

2) It would help me (maybe others) if you would refer to the rendered output with the file extension .m2v or .avc rather than AVCHD or Movie File monikers.

The Mainconcept MPEG-2 Blu-ray template creates a file with an .m2v extension. The Mainconcept AVC/AAC Blu-ray render templates creates a file with a .avc extension. This is also true of the Sony AVC/MVC Blu-ray templates.

All is not lost. The markers can be loaded from the audio file (allbeit with potentially less accurate results) if you make the changes in DVD Architect discussed in this thread.

Buy yourself a BD-RE. It'll save money in the long run. I have three that I've used for years to test .iso images.

PeterDuke wrote on 10/9/2014, 6:53 PM

If you render to an AVCHD template with the Sony encoder, the extension is .m2ts, with or without the audio.

PeterDuke wrote on 10/9/2014, 7:00 PM

When you render your video (and audio) a so called sidecar file is also created, which has the same name as the rendered file plus a .sfl extension. This file should be in the same folder as the main file. You must not rename either file. The .sfl file contains marker info used by DVDA. (I think the marker info is also included in the MPEG file when you make a DVD, so the .sfl file may not be necessary in that case.)

jason-duncan wrote on 10/9/2014, 7:34 PM

Sorry guys, I am a newbie at BD burning.

Yes, I have Acrhitect set for the same properties you have in the picture.

I re-inserted the .m2t file in Architect, I couldn't get the Load Markers button to highlight. Almost like there are no Markers.

Still a litte confused on why the rendered file ends up being .m2t, when I think I want .m2v. Especially after chosing the Mainconcept Mpeg-2 Template, and not the Sony AVC/MVC option.

So you're saying it doesn't matter what Template I use. I should have audio automatically?

john_dennis wrote on 10/9/2014, 8:17 PM

"[I]So you're saying it doesn't matter what Template I use. I should have audio automatically?[/I]"

It does matter which template you use if you don't want DVD Architect to re-render. You could use:

File / Render As / Mainconcept MPEG-2 (*.mpg, *.m2v, *.m2t, *.mpa) / Blu-ray 1920x1080-24p, 25 Mbps video stream

Check "Use separate elementary streams" to produce a .m2v file.

Render audio separately to your .wav preference. Name the video and audio the same except for the extension and make sure they go to the same folder.

You could also use the Sony AVC/MVC Blu-ray template.

john_dennis wrote on 10/9/2014, 10:50 PM

"[I]Still a little confused on why the rendered file ends up being .m2t, when I think I want .m2v.[/I]"

If your video file has an .M2T extension, it's possible you clicked on HDV 1080-24p (*) under Mainconcept MPEG-2.

jason-duncan wrote on 10/10/2014, 7:01 AM

Ok, I re-rendered the project, making sure it's set to Blu Ray (not HDV) 1920x1080 24p 25mbps (same Template as before) and I didn't select the "save as separate elementary streams" option. The extension is now .m2v like I wanted, but no audio. I then rendered the project for audio (.wav pcm 16b 48k).

I can then drag and drop the two files in the Architect timeline, but still no chapter markers. I can't even select the "insert scene/chapter marker" button. But I really I wanted a menu on this project, not just a hard start to the video when I insert the disc in the player. Besides, I think you still need one chapter marker at the beginning of the project or else the player won't play it??

I can open Themes, chose a menu, Insert, Media, but the media I add has no audio, unless I use the .m2t file. But even when I use the .m2t file, still no chapters, and no way to add markers in the Architect Timeline. The button won't highlight.

You mentioned making sure the video and audio renders go in the same folder; I just have them render to My Documents, and then I can add the media into Architect via dragging and dropping, or selecting the Insert, Media steps.

When I render this project for a dvd, I have audio and chapter markers. I don't understand why making a blu ray is any different. It's still mpeg-2 which is what the dvd is. And why would selecting the "Save as separate elementary streams" make the extension .m2t not .m2v?

I don't mind combining the two separate renders (video and audio) if it's going to get me mpeg-2 vs. avchd.

When I tested this for dvd, I can see all of the chapter marker points in the Timeline in Architect, and of course audio.

dxdy wrote on 10/10/2014, 9:04 AM

When you rendered from Vegas, did you have "include markers" checked in the render dialog?

jason-duncan wrote on 10/10/2014, 9:22 AM

Yes, I made sure the "save project markers in rendered media file" under the Metadata Options is Checked. That's why it's hard to understand why the rendered HD file doesn't include them, when the rendered dvd file does (same goes for the audio).

OldSmoke wrote on 10/10/2014, 9:31 AM

Markers are stored in a separate file. It has the same name as the video stream with the extension .sfl. So you should get something like "filename.m2v.sfl". Both must be present for DVDA do be read. Vegas can produce the .sfl file from either your video or audio file render.

jason-duncan wrote on 10/10/2014, 11:02 AM

This is only true for HD rendering correct? Because I'm not having this issue when I render using a dvd template of the same project. (I'm at work for another 3 hrs so I can't check my computer till then)

I guess I'll try to tackle each problem separately (chapters and no audio)

john_dennis wrote on 10/10/2014, 11:19 AM

"[I]I think you still need one chapter marker at the beginning of the project or else the player won't play it??[/I]

DVD Architect is smart enough to conform to the DVD spec and places a chapter marker at the beginning of each title.

"[I]I don't mind combining the two separate renders (video and audio) if it's going to get me mpeg-2 vs. avchd[/I]."

Since DVD and Blu-ray can have multiple audio tracks for the same video and the video and audio will be multiplexed to the DVD or Blu-ray file spec, just think of it as more convenient to be able to mix and match. You could include stereo Dolby Digital .ac3 along with a PCM audio track, or you could include a English, Spanish and French audio track, all done without a new video render.

"[I] I can't even select the "insert scene/chapter marker" button. [/I]"

That's a problem. You should be able to insert chapter marks within DVD Architect whether the input files contained them or not.

"[I]When I render this project for a dvd, I have audio and chapter markers.[/I]"

Have you tried inserting a new track on the DVD Architect timeline underneath the Blu-ray track and inserting the video from your DVD to see if the markers can be loaded. If the markers can be collected from your DVD video, you can possibly save them and delete that DVD video.

http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/40618156/2014-10-09%20Render%20Mainconcept/Insert%20DVD%20Video.png

I would also reccommend that you make some test renders 20 seconds long with chapter marks. Shorter files will reduce the tedium. If you don't start reducing the tedium pretty soon you'll end up looking like me.

OldSmoke wrote on 10/10/2014, 1:42 PM

As long as you select a BD or DVD template then it should produce the marker file too. Note that only markers are used, regions are not used. If you only have regions there will be no marker file.

rraud wrote on 10/10/2014, 2:25 PM

FWIW, In DVD arc, (or Imageburn) you can render an <.iso> image file and open it in the VideoLan VLC media player to audition the 'disc' instead of burning expensive coasters if you don't have any rewritable discs.

john_dennis wrote on 10/10/2014, 2:40 PM

If you watch this webinar, it may not fix your problem but you'll learn something.

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/vegaspro10webinar02

PeterDuke wrote on 10/10/2014, 7:59 PM

"FWIW, In DVD arc, (or Imageburn) you can render an <.iso> image file and open it in the VideoLan VLC media player to audition the 'disc' instead of burning expensive coasters if you don't have any rewritable discs."

True, that VLC will play DVD ISO, but it will not play BD ISO. In the latter case, first mount the BD ISO using say the free Virtual Clone Drive, and then play with your favourite BD player.

jason-duncan wrote on 10/11/2014, 9:30 AM

I think I found a problem, if not THE problem(s). After I rendered the project, I've been re-naming the file. I probably should just named the desired file when I did the render vs. going back after and re-naming it. This caused the extension file(s) name to be different from the newly re-named main file.

And I've been deleting the extension files (.sfl). I deleted the extensions because the icon of the file appears as a blank file (not sure how to describe this-Example: when I render a WAV file, the file icon has a little music note. When I render the .m2t the file icon is a little film strip). Since the extension file icon was white, or blank, I assumed it was just a temporary file that isn't needed).

Thank you for the tip on rendering a short project. That was a good test, and render- time saver.

Thank you for the webinar link. That was very helpful. I did learn a lot.

So, I now have audio and chapter breaks, for the .m2t file only because I selected the "save as separate elementary streams" option. I'm still confused how I would combine the video-render and audio-render if I render a .m2v clip?

musicvid10 wrote on 10/11/2014, 10:05 AM

Name your media file when you render it, not after.

john_dennis wrote on 10/11/2014, 11:01 AM

"[I]And I've been deleting the extension files (.sfl).[/I]"

That will do it. You're going to stop that, aren't you?

Over time, you'll get the hang of the workflow. If I did, anyone can.

It's like the old joke, "How do I get to Carnegie Hall?"

"Practice. Practice. Practice."

jason-duncan wrote on 10/11/2014, 1:13 PM

Heck no, I won't do that again.

But it's my understanding that when a file icon is blank/white, that means there is no program on the computer that will open that file?

Hate to ask this again but... Could anyone guide me to a webinar or Tip section on how to combine two seperate renders? (since I want to see if I can burn this project as a .m2v).

john_dennis wrote on 10/11/2014, 4:55 PM

Below is a link to a Problem Step Recorder output that shows the steps. View it as a slide show or study each step. If the video and audio files are the same name with different extensions, it is automagic.

http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/40618156/2014-10-11%20Bluray%20Demo/Problem_20141011_1440.mht

jason-duncan wrote on 10/11/2014, 5:47 PM

Thank you John for the link, but I don't have an activee WinZip account. I do have a Dropbox though. It wants me to buy the Zip program....

PeterDuke wrote on 10/11/2014, 6:34 PM

"After I rendered the project, I've been re-naming the file."

The reason that you should not rename the video file is because it is hard coded into the .sfl file. Have a look at one with a text editor, preferably one that formats XML.

john_dennis wrote on 10/11/2014, 7:26 PM

Later versions of Windows should unzip the files natively. WinZip should offer a free trial.

I changed the link to a larger, uncompressed version. Right-Click / Save As

replace the file name with:

Problem_20141011_1440.mht