-31 dialnorm = wyhiwyg.

As I stated, for DVD/BD I set levels peaking at a max of -5 or -6dBFS w/moderate compression and peak limiting. But without disabling the Dolby encoder's dynamic range preprocessing, the audio will still be low.
OTOH, why don't you just render PCM audio?

[I]"VideoITguy does have a point with regard to dynamic range. One of the ways 5.1 sound is brought to life is by intentionally softening the center channel. This forces one to turn the volume up a little more to hear it. So now, when the bombs and bullets start flying from rear to front, or left to right... you REALLY hear them!"[/I]

Yes more or less. The listener also has the option of controlling the dynamic range to suit their environment Dolby isn't just a lossy audio compression system like mp3, it's also a dynamic range control system. The intent is that one audio master can be produced and it will play back with sensible dynamic range in various environments and over various delivery systems. The various parameters that we setup in the encoder are included in the encoded stream for use by the decoders and how it is decoded can be controlled. For example a 5.1 mix for movie being sent out on an AM or FM transmitter. The box that's decoding the Dolby data can be setup to avoid nasty things from happening. That "box" could also be your HDTV while you're watching an OTA broadcast. From what I saw in "mission control" of a network, -27dB was always being displayed on the Dolby monitoring as the Dial Normal value. The Dolby monitoring gear would also let the tech switch from 5.1 to stereo, as pointed out get it wrong and weird things can happen with the 5.1 to 2.0 mix down that the decoder might be doing.

To do Dolby correctly arguably you need a real time encoding and decoding setup. That is expensive and complex, arguably best to send your mix to the people with the skill and gear to do it right if you're doing something for theatrical release.

Back to Vegas, what I find odd is the DVD specification say the audio can be PCM, DD or mpeg-1 layer 2. PCM takes up a lot of space, DD is problematic as we've discussed many times. How come we don't have the option to use mpeg-1 layer 2. or do we?

Bob.

Mpeg audio for PAL countries, I recall. Not allowed for NTSC countries.

Curious about your "-27db" comment. I wonder if they do this so that their commercials will blast a bit hotter (presumably at -31)?(!)

[I]" Curious about your "-27db" comment. I wonder if they do this so that their commercials will blast a bit hotter (presumably at -31)?(!)"[/I]

I cannot comment really on what commercial broadcasters do, my only exposure has been with the Australian Broadcasting Corporation (Au version of BBC) who don't do commercials. That said I believe once the metadata is set by the content creator it stays all the way to the audience's receiver. I know for live content -27dB is used as the default as it's considered "safe". The OB vans have Dolby encoders and monitoring systems in place. From an article in Audio Technology that's another challenge for the sound guy, imagine a football match.

Bob.

I think this is basically just a consequence of a reasonable idea (a gunshot in a theater should always be at a certain loudness; so should spoken dialogue) being pasted into contexts where it really doesn't belong.

On our laptops we have volume controls and on our TV's we have remote controls and we expect to use them to set the volume how we want it--and that's assuming dialogue normalization is being done properly in the first place, which (in most non-studio cases) it probably isn't.

"On our laptops we have volume controls and on our TV's we have remote controls and we expect to use them to set the volume how we want it--"

Well... really our volume control is supposed to control the overall gain of the system as WE desire it. Dialog norm on the other hand is a method of gain control given to the author in an attempt accomplish an effect he/she wishes to express by offering more or less headroom for those effects.

Granted this all depends greatly on having a playback device which is properly set and adjusted. Good luck with the cheaper AVR's, but the more expensive home AV receivers have an automated on-board system which is used with a microphone to measure and test the acoustics of your room and set gains/eq's automatically and to proper specs. All this maximizes the end result effect that dialog normalization was built for.


============================================================
"Dialnorm is the meta-data parameter that controls playback gain within the Dolby Laboratories Dolby Digital (AC-3) audio compression system. Dialnorm is an integer value with range 1 to 31 corresponding to a playback gain of -30 to 0 dB (unity) respectively. Higher values afford more headroom and are appropriate for dynamic material such as an action film."

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialnorm]
==============================================================

"I know for live content -27dB is used as the default as it's considered "safe"."

Yeah... why they made this complicated I am not sure, but a setting of 'ONE' is actually -30db and a setting of 'thirty-one' equates to 0db (unity)

So when you say 27, are you saying -27db or the SETTING of 27?

I ask merely because it can get a bit confusing. I have a more expensive AVR and when you switch to a dobly input it will actually read dial.norm metadata and display it on the panel. The reading for my cable tv box has always displayed as -4.... but that's in db measurements (in other words close to unity). The actual setting for a -4db result would be something like a 27 setting on the Dolby encoder

sooo... instead of ME mixing my dialog in Vegas around -21 to -15 ish, and explosions and loud parts peaking at -.1, I should learn about how to mix for Dolby? Or something?

Most pros master mixing to mono & stereo prior to taking on a 5:1 mix.. which really isn't a good idea anyway.. unless you know what your doing and have a calibrated monitor system/room. Most film festival systems are far from calibrated.. if they just have a mono or stereo PB system, your downmixed 5:1 could turn into a disaster.

I mean in the future. I've figured out how to get a 5.1 mix in Vegas going... am a decent mixer, plan to do Digital Cinema Packages in the future, so I want to deliver a legit 5.1 mix to a theater that can ingest that.

The local theater doing the Festivals seems pretty friendly... I talked to the manager, asked if I could do some tests there someday and he agreed - thought it might be cool.

So, I would love to mix into 5.1 properly in Vegas (that is what it is for, right?) to deliver a real theater mix to them in DCP.

I'm getting close with my stereo mixes, copying commercial movies for levels of dialog and peaks, music, etc.... but Vegas should allow a proper 5.1 Digital Dolby surround mix, if I read about it correctly.

Vegas already does that, and offers different 5.1 mix modes, but your audio must conform first. Read the Dolby Digital White Paper.

As an aside, I stumbled across this series of articles regarding surround sound. It says the first theatrical use was for Disney's "Fantasia"--in 1938! They were intrigued with the idea of having the listener enveloped by orchestral sounds from all sides, so they had to pioneer new microphone placement techniques and even invent new hardware (pan pots) to handle the up-to-eight channels. Since theaters had mono sound they toured the country with their own engineers to temporarily set up the theater sound systems they called "FantaSound." Then WWII came along and everything was put away.

Great technology but frankly I always thought Fantasia was a weird film. The guys must have been high on something. Mickey's brooms gave me nightmares as a kid.

"Great technology but frankly I always thought Fantasia was a weird film. The guys must have been high on something. Mickey's brooms gave me nightmares as a kid."

Apparently the scene "Night on Bald Mountain" scared many little kids when Fantasia first came out. I saw a re-release a few years ago in a cinema, and a member of the staff took trouble to warn parents that small kids might be frightened by this scene. When the scene came, we all held our breath waiting for any reaction. It came: a small voice piped up "Batman!". The audience laughed with relief.

5.1 beginners settings are easy with Vegas :
Choose the Dolby digital AC-Studio template
Levels are Ok, playing the Brd at home on a calibrated 5.1 device is OK.
Dvd Architect pro shows good levels
http://dominotes.fr/vegas/audio/l2.jpg

compared to simply setting the AC -3 Pro template to -31 db as mentionned by John
http://dominotes.fr/vegas/audio/l1.jpg

And rraud is right : his settings also give higher sound levels. But I have not tested this on a blueray.

I found this http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/whp/whp-pdf-files/WHP175.pdf white paper, and I start reading it as suggested by musicvid10.

Didier.

Nope, ac3 Studio will not work with Bluray, and the 5.1 has the mixdown phase shift bug. Not Recommended.