Gee, DSE, just had to toss them that grenade without the pin! ;-)

This is exactly the kind of stuff Spot's good for when he has no answers.

I don't believe that any of this will have much impact on those of us primarily doing one-offs on BD-R or AVCHD disc on DVD+-Rs.

No moreso than current DVD burning fees affect us directly. We're all indirectly affected by the fees one way or another, but it's not so much as we'd notice. If you're a replicator, it affects you directly, and those fees of course, are passed on. Yet they're still minimal. Every time you encode to nearly any format, a fee has been induced. It may have been paid in a collective license, it may have been paid per use, it may have been paid by the software developer, or they might be part of a free percentage. But at the end of the day, there are fees paid to someone, somewhere.
Yet no one worries, talks, debates, or thinks about them. Until it suits some sort of anti-this or that message.
I tell ya...one day the conspiracy theorists are gonna prove once and for all that William Shatner wears a piece.

No moreso than current DVD burning fees affect us directly. We're all indirectly affected by the fees one way or another, but it's not so much as we'd notice

And just exactly which BDA official told you this Spot... can you please show me a link?

This is exactly the kind of stuff Spot's good for when he has no answers.

Please indicate where I didn't provide a specific answer. I used your quote, and responded to it.
The rest of your position? Strawman at best.
There are several FUDdites that are terribly misinformed, and either unwilling, or too dumb to learn the answers so it's easy to parrot. Can you specifically tell us about the licensing fees and what they're for?
Wanna see the check stubs that we write to MPEG LA for software products we manufacture? C'mon over, I'm happy to show em. Can you show *one* check you've ever made out for MPEG or other encoding license fees to any developer? Even with the "hundreds of DVDs you burn every week?"
Just show me one check you've written, and I'll shut up on this subject.
You think Adobe, Sonic, Ulead, Apple, Pioneer, Teac, and even Sony implemented BD support in their tools without first having a license agreement in place? And how long ago did Sonic offer BD authoring? How long ago did Ulead offer BD authoring? but you think these fees are only *now* being created?
Either way, you bit...:-)

I'd appreciate an understanding of how you personally, have paid directly, one dime in licensing fees.
Please?

I haven't had time to read this thread, but judging on the amount of responses I would just like to make sure that you guys don't loop me in this argument as being some HD-DVD fanboy. I conceded about the time Warner moved, and I still love my HD-DVD player, the titles I own, especially Planet Earth and Harry Potter (which I know are also on Bluray, thankyouverymuch), and it's fantastic upconversion. I hope Bluray takes all the best features of HD-DVD. :)

I was just making sure that I could still burn and sell a movie on a Bluray disc for free, no logos or whatever, legally, like I do with a DVD, if that was ever even legal. I hate how you guys get into these matches, because it typically makes finding the information I need more difficult. :(

There are several FUDdites that are terribly misinformed, and either unwilling, or too dumb to learn the answers so it's easy to parrot.

Yeah... YOU for one. Where did you get this from:

No more so than current DVD burning fees affect us directly. We're all indirectly affected by the fees one way or another, but it's not so much as we'd notice. If you're a replicator, it affects you directly, and those fees of course, are passed on. Yet they're still minimal.

Show me a link or some proof.... because frankly I don't believe you. I think you pulled this out of your head.

And just exactly which BDA official told you this Spot... can you please show me a link?

Never heard it from a "BDA official" because there is no need for a "BDA official" to tell me anything about licensing fees. Conversely, can you demonstrate to me how the licensing fees WILL affect everyone? I didn't think so. You're the one claiming it will, therefore the burden of proof is yours.
But since you won't...here is the link you asked for.
http://www.mpegla.org/index1.cfm

Again, show us just *one,* only one check, money order, postal order, bank draft that you've ever written to MPEG LA. or to Toshiba for the "hundreds of discs" you've burned.

And Jonathan, you can burn and sell a BD just like you have done with DVD, don't let the FUDdites grind you down. FUDdites don't produce, create, edit, or deliver content, let alone BD content, and mostly sit around measurebating whatever topic catches their eye.
Don't worry about it, the sky is not falling, the cost of media creation didn't go up overnight, BDA isn't going to come into your house and smash your hard drives, and the laser police aren't hiding under your bed.

And Jonathan, you

Thank you, Spot. That's exactly what I was looking for, although I'm not sure what a FUDdite is. You should define it for UrbanDictionary though!

I didn't think so. You're the one claiming it will, therefore the burden of proof is yours.

Buy a pair of glasses and learn to read spot... I'm not "claiming" anything. Here's a quote from me above:
Believe me Apit.... I HOPE I am wrong.... but I have a sinking feeling that we have yet to see the end of the "licensing fees".

See spot run,
See Spot twist things.... as he usually does.

Blinkyboy, I see you have that paintbrush out and you're headed for the corner again.

Blinkyboy, I see you have that paintbrush out and you're headed for the corner again.

Spot shoots is mouth off and outright refuses to come up with the proof... and I'm in the corner... how do you figure that?

Well, I found this at his link a couple of posts above...
http://www.mpegla.com/pid/bluray/

Well, I found this at his link a couple of posts above...

Yes... and the latest meeting stated is the year 2005

http://www.mpegla.com/news/n_05-01-06_drm.pdf

Please allow me to remind you that it is now 2008.

As usual... Spot throwing crap on the wall in hopes that it sticks.

(and BTW... your link is PATENT licensing... not what is being discussed... you want the DRM section)

Please let me remind you, that at the top of the page it says the fourth meeting was held one year ago, tomorrow. (Feb 21, 2007)

Please let me remind you, that at the top of the page it says the fourth meeting was held one year ago, tomorrow. (Feb 21, 2007)

Again... you have the PATENT licensing section which is not the issue. There is a link there for DRM.

You do notice that these fees are starting to show up AFTER hd dvd has stepped down... how honest of them.

Who's twisting words here? You can't stick with the discussion, so you go on the attack? Smooth. Cowardly.

The fees were first proposed on December 1, 2005. They were ratified by all 17 patent holders on April 5, 2006. The first BDA fee schedule through MPEG LA was implemented on July 20, 2006. Fees for writing, burning, replicating were set in Dec of 2006 IIRC.

This is all well before HD DVD was knocked on it's backside. In fact, it was long before Bill Gates rescued HD DVD from it's nearly closed coffin.

How many of us have burned BD's already? How much more did it cost us in licensing fees than SD DVD?

Otherwise, pick up the phone and call a BD replicator, and listen to them laugh when you tell them you heard BD licensing fees went up yesterday, today, or otherwise. Need a list?

You infer that the licensing fees referred to in the original post will affect end users in some dramatic way. I've suggested they don't, and the links and the thousands of user experiences say the same. MPEG LA says it won't either. Maybe MPEG LA is lying and you know what's happening in the backrooms of the 18 BDA patent holders and the hundreds of license owners.

It's fairly obvious that you don't understand the licensing process, who manages it, how royalties are paid, how license fees are assessed. More than anything, I've tried to prevent you from embarassing yourself further on this subject.

I've failed. My apologies.

Of course you can burn a BR disc and give it to someone, they just might not be able to play it on their machine!

Well... the rest of your post is typical Spot jawing so I will ignore it but this:

You infer that the licensing fees referred to in the original post will affect end users in some dramatic way. I've suggested they don't, and the links and the thousands of user experiences say the same.

It's at least nice to see you've climbed down off your horse and SOMEWHAT admitted that our OPINIONS differ from each other, instead of your "fact" against my "FUD".

For the moment we have no problems with fees... this is true, and I never said otherwise. I don't know what the near future holds though and this is what concerns me..... and you don't either.

Of course you can burn a BR disc and give it to someone, they just might not be able to play it on their machine!

Welcome to the wonderful world of undefined formats.

First, we have discuss many times over the last four years the fees/royalties with DVD production and etc. I just lightly covered it about mpeg2 fees, thinking most everyone would remember the links and text or they just didn't care enough to read it and it would not matter. But I should have posted the mpeg la link. BD group or BDA proper link is no secret, so why all the rumors? Any tech news agency, the BBC, and NYTimes would be over this "increase" in fees for BD users if it existed in a flash.

Blink, no matter how you want to spin this "story", it does not exist at this moment, so DSE is correct about the fees and timeline. Maybe your fears about fees may happen in the future, but the odds are against you-again. ;-)

Welcome to the wonderful world of undefined formats.

Sour grapes much?

FIY, Blu-Ray players will work much better with upcoming discs than HD-DVD players. HAHAHAHAHAH!!!

Yep. Childish. That's the best way to converse with Blink. (Hey, is "blink" short for "blinkered?")

Anyway, OK Blink we get it: you don't like BR and you're angry that it won. Time to move on. Are we going to have to suffer your childish little snide comments or sky-is-falling pronouncements at every turn? Can't we instead just assume that regardless of the thread you're sitting there with a grumpy face about BR instead of having you actually post? Because if you want I'll post every 20 minutes about how dead HD-DVD is and how silly people were who thought it was going to win or that "the war hasn't even started yet."

Now, as for BR discs not being able to play on all BR machines... hmmm, what does that sound like? Maybe DVDs? In case you're in denial and can't bring yourself to remember, DVDs-- especially dual layered ones-- don't exactly have the greatest compatibility record. Also, the DVD specs changed at the beginning too and early-adopter machines couldn't access some features (I had one of those).

And answer me this: How compatible are HD-DVD recordables? I don't mean regular discs burned as HD, I mean actual HD-DVDs? (Because it's only fair to compare apples to apples.)

wow.. what an absolutely pathetic thread...
as for "undefined" i think blu-ray.com FAQ define it quite well.



1.8 What video codecs will Blu-ray support?


MPEG-2 - enhanced for HD, also used for playback of DVDs and HDTV recordings.
MPEG-4 AVC - part of the MPEG-4 standard also known as H.264 (High Profile and Main Profile).
SMPTE VC-1 - standard based on Microsoft's Windows Media Video (WMV) technology.

Please note that this simply means that all Blu-ray players and recorders will have to support playback of these video codecs, it will still be up to the movie studios to decide which video codec(s) they use for their releases.


1.9 What audio codecs will Blu-ray support?


Linear PCM (LPCM) - up to 8 channels of uncompressed audio. (mandatory)
Dolby Digital (DD) - format used for DVDs, 5.1-channel surround sound. (mandatory)
Dolby Digital Plus (DD+) - extension of Dolby Digital, 7.1-channel surround sound. (optional)
Dolby TrueHD - lossless encoding of up to 8 channels of audio. (optional)
DTS Digital Surround - format used for DVDs, 5.1-channel surround sound. (mandatory)
DTS-HD High Resolution Audio - extension of DTS, 7.1-channel surround sound. (optional)
DTS-HD Master Audio - lossless encoding of up to 8 channels of audio. (optional)

Please note that this simply means that Blu-ray players and recorders will have to support playback of these audio codecs, it will still be up to the movie studios to decide which audio codec(s) they use for their releases.


Wanna use MPG2, go ahead.. youve paid for the encoder when you bought Vegas and DVDA
Wanna use VC-1? No worries... go to MS site and grab the Professional codec
Wanna make commercial BD's? Go ahead...

Fact is, that most places you go will already have the licesing fees covered for you which you end up paying a part of anyway.
Its no different to DVD today