BM Intensity Pro 4K - 10 bit preview over HDMI?

max8 wrote on 4/19/2020, 11:13 PM

Hi,

does anyone know if Vegas can output 10 bit with the BM Intensity Pro 4K?

With the non-4K version the 10 bit check box seemed not to work and with the Mini Monitor 4K "sometimes". (https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/yes-blackmagic-design-decklink-mini-monitor-4k-works-with-vp-16-vp-17--116990/#ca728505)

But I am more interested in the Intensity than the Mini Monitor due to its inputs.

Currently I'm using VP15.

Thanks for any input!

Comments

fr0sty wrote on 4/19/2020, 11:51 PM

I do know that Vegas 16 and later can do 10 bit HDR over any GPU display that supports HDR, you just put windows (10) into HDR mode, set your project to HDR, and you get a 10 bit HDR display out of it.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Radeon VII

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

max8 wrote on 4/19/2020, 11:59 PM

Thanks, that's good to know that way of getting 10 bit output.

But if it's possible I would like to use dedicated hardware (Intensity Pro 4K) for preview as there are other aspects I would like to maintain aswell.

fr0sty wrote on 4/20/2020, 12:47 AM

You should be able to get 10 bit on some monitors using it, but HDR is the best way to go about getting 10 bit previews on any HDR compatible TV, of which there are many and much more affordable than a pro 10 bit monitor would cost. If your TV has a way of manually enabling HDR you might be able to do it that way.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Radeon VII

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

max8 wrote on 4/20/2020, 8:03 PM

So a HDR TV supports always 10 bit? But a decent monitor is another story...

For now it's important to me that I am/would be able to preview 10 bit.

 

Does anyone have experience with the Intensity Pro 4K and 10 bit?

fr0sty wrote on 4/20/2020, 8:22 PM

Yes, HDR by standard is at least 10 bit (up to 12 bit currently). Vegas supports the HDR10 and HLG varieties of HDR, both of which are 10 bit minimum. HDR is currently the only way to get 10 bit video to a client in a deliverable format as well. HDR TVs must also comply with a maximum brightness of 1000 nits (some standards go higher), and a minimum brightness of .05 nits of black darkness. OLED TVs are different, they are only required to hit 700 nits of brightness, because they can go down as low as 0.005 nits of black level and produce more accurate color. There are some "HDR" TVs that only hit 300-400 nits of brightness, but they do not have the brightness levels required to deliver the true HDR experience.

I know that some NLEs do support HDR over blackmagic devices (at least the mini-monitor 4k card, I've used that with Resolve), but to the best of my knowledge, Vegas only supports HDR output over a standard GPU output, which makes it far more accessible to the masses, but for those of you who would prefer to output over your BM card, it can be a headache. Unless your TV can manually put itself into 10 bit deep color mode, chances are it won't work, because most TVs wait to get that HDR "flag" in the metadata before they kick into 10 bit mode.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Radeon VII

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

max8 wrote on 4/20/2020, 10:12 PM

Oh, OK, when I'm ready for HDR I know whom to ask, thanks! ;-)

I'm not shure if I understand you correctly: do you use HDR in this explanation only as a means to make sure that there is 10 bit output (in combination with a TV that may need HDR signalling) or for actually using HDR?

Because right now I'm not into HDR and only want a hardware and software combination to output 10 bit SDR. Delivery would be ProRes e.g. It's purely for SDR grading - without the need for metadata. I'm using a simple FHD PC monitor with HDMI. If Vegas outputs 10 bits, I would be happy. The display would have to be compliant with a "normal" 10 bit signal, the source should not have to "care". ;-)

Currently I use Windows 8.1 and the internal Intel GPU, so no HDR mode... And I think things like interlacing etc... are best done with a "real" video signal output. That's why I'm after the combination Intensity Pro 4K + Vegas.

fr0sty wrote on 4/20/2020, 10:25 PM

"I'm not shure if I understand you correctly: do you use HDR in this explanation only as a means to make sure that there is 10 bit output (in combination with a TV that may need HDR signalling) or for actually using HDR?"

Technically, both. However, color space is also a factor. It is possible to shoot 10 bit video in the Rec709 color space, but HDR uses the much wider Rec2020 color space, that covers a much wider range of potential colors. In both cases, it's still 10 bit, but Rec2020 will be able to hit certain shades the Rec709 cannot. That's another thing to consider with your 10 bit video. What is your video source? The source must also be recorded in 10 bit.

Also, it's highly unlikely your monitor even supports 10 bit if it's just a consumer 1080p monitor, so it won't matter if you're getting 10 bit out of your BM card or not.

Last changed by fr0sty on 4/20/2020, 10:28 PM, changed a total of 3 times.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Radeon VII

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

max8 wrote on 4/20/2020, 11:03 PM

The source is mostly some kind of broadcast equipment (cameras and recorders) so the recordings are ProRes, Rec709, usually 10 bit (otherwise I would know). The file-based workflow is completely 10 bit in-->out.

It's even highly unlikely that my monitor supports 8 bit. 😉 (6 bit panel I think... and an almost black screen triggers a stand by. 🤓) But I don't care right now. I want a solution that will work with a better monitor in the future and I think it makes sense to find out now what would work later. That might be a TV, a PC monitor or a video monitor.

fr0sty wrote on 4/21/2020, 12:23 AM

I'd go for HDR monitors in the future, as you'll be able to see your 10 bit footage in 10 bit when grading, and if you desire to output to a HDR format from there, you have that option. As for your BlackMagic card, you might have to use the GPU output for now until HDR output over non-GPU devices is supported. However, if you have a 10 bit pro monitor that can manually set itself to take a 10 bit input, then you may be good to go, as I do know Vegas can send 10 bit over at least some BM cards.

Last changed by fr0sty on 4/21/2020, 12:25 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Radeon VII

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

max8 wrote on 4/21/2020, 11:35 AM

[...]as I do know Vegas can send 10 bit over at least some BM cards.

Do you or does anyone else know which these "some BM cards" are?

max8 wrote on 5/24/2020, 1:12 PM

Sorry for bringing it up again.

Does anyone have definite informations? Am I the only one interested in (or using) this combination? How do others monitor 10 bit?

diverG wrote on 5/24/2020, 3:24 PM

I have seen this problem come up on Edious/Grass Valley forums. May be search there. Current BM4K may not handle hdr just plain 4K

Sys 1 Gig Z370-HD3, i7 8086K @ 5.0 Ghz 16gb ram, 250gb SSD, 2x2Tb hd,  GTX 1060 6Gb Vegas 14 & 17 plus Edius 8WG Win 10pro (1909) BMIP4k video out. (PS 650W)

Sys 2 Gig Z170-HD3, i7 6700K @ 3.8Ghz 16gb ram, 250gb SSD, 2x2Tb, hdd GTX 750ti,  Vegas 15 & 16 plus Edius 8WG Win 10pro (1909) BMIP4k video out. (PS 650W)

Sys 3 Laptop 'Clevo' i7 6700K @ 3.0ghz, 16gb ram, 250gb SSd + 2Tb hdd,   nvidia 940 M graphics. VP14 & 17 via humble bundle. Plus Edius 8WG Win 10pro (1909)

 

max8 wrote on 5/24/2020, 3:32 PM

Maybe I'm understanding something totally wrong. But isn't "pure" 10 bit capability and HDR capability something different? (flags, etc...).

Please don't get me wrong (maybe I am). A appreciate every detail I learn about HDR, but I really didn't ask for it. As of today, I'm only interested in 10 bit SDR 1080p50, nothing else. ;-)

(Therefore information about Edius doesn't help me as I want to use it with Vegas. The hardware itself is able to output 10 bit. But does it with Vegas?)

diverG wrote on 5/24/2020, 4:15 PM

Edius & Vegas both allow preview via BM4K. The question you raise is not getting answered here, hence widen your search. I was not plugging ediou, this is a vegas forum.

Sys 1 Gig Z370-HD3, i7 8086K @ 5.0 Ghz 16gb ram, 250gb SSD, 2x2Tb hd,  GTX 1060 6Gb Vegas 14 & 17 plus Edius 8WG Win 10pro (1909) BMIP4k video out. (PS 650W)

Sys 2 Gig Z170-HD3, i7 6700K @ 3.8Ghz 16gb ram, 250gb SSD, 2x2Tb, hdd GTX 750ti,  Vegas 15 & 16 plus Edius 8WG Win 10pro (1909) BMIP4k video out. (PS 650W)

Sys 3 Laptop 'Clevo' i7 6700K @ 3.0ghz, 16gb ram, 250gb SSd + 2Tb hdd,   nvidia 940 M graphics. VP14 & 17 via humble bundle. Plus Edius 8WG Win 10pro (1909)

 

max8 wrote on 5/24/2020, 4:29 PM

Hm, are there other, definite 10 bit preview options for Vegas? There must be someone wanting the same...

What other resources would be there?

What about an official list by Magix? (with this detail - as a general "compatibility" is mentioned by BM)

aftab-a wrote on 7/7/2020, 3:06 PM

Here Well this should give you an answer, so Intensity Pro 4K can do 10-bit Color RGB 4:4:4 in all modes up to 1080p 60, 10-bit YUV 422 in all modes. it reads over HDMI 1.4b it can support Deep color and automatically configures if a 10bit display is connected.

max8 wrote on 7/8/2020, 11:11 AM

Thanks for looking that up.

But I read somewhere that these infos might only specificate the HDMI input (no one knows...). And it also doesn't state if Vegas can adress the driver with 10 bit.

fred-w wrote on 7/8/2020, 1:32 PM

@max8 I have the older Mini Monitor and older Intensity (both non 4K). The MM is 8/10 bit, but, until these last couple of Vegas 17 releases, not addressable by Vegas, so, I sometimes used Intensity. Now, If I need to, I can use the MM. The older Intensity has always been available to Vegas, but that version Intensity is 8 bit only.

(I actually bought the MM to be able to use BM's Davinci Resolve, which would only let you monitor on certain cards, especially BM. I was disappointed Vegas would not address that card, not at that time, so I got the Intensity as well).

Vegas now can address the 10 bit in MM, but, in my case, will slow from full 24 fps (single video track, no effects, @8 bit) to about 20 fps @10 bit. (I'm running a decent higher end HP Z420 Workstation, no bleeding edge CPU).

Now, that is with the Project Settings for 8 bit, with 32 bit, video or full, you slow way down from that. So, sometimes your editing with 8 bit project setting, and looking at certain color grades in 32 bit for short spurts, them back to 8 bit, just speaking practically.

max8 wrote on 7/8/2020, 4:20 PM

That's interesting. So the additional video output will slow down Vegas a noticable amount? Maybe there are even differences between the various BM models. Sadly the MM is only capable of up to 30p/60i (?) where I need 50p.

diverG wrote on 7/10/2020, 8:16 AM

The IP4K is an 'old card', circa 2015. Ans No. Other BM cards will meet your needs.

Sys 1 Gig Z370-HD3, i7 8086K @ 5.0 Ghz 16gb ram, 250gb SSD, 2x2Tb hd,  GTX 1060 6Gb Vegas 14 & 17 plus Edius 8WG Win 10pro (1909) BMIP4k video out. (PS 650W)

Sys 2 Gig Z170-HD3, i7 6700K @ 3.8Ghz 16gb ram, 250gb SSD, 2x2Tb, hdd GTX 750ti,  Vegas 15 & 16 plus Edius 8WG Win 10pro (1909) BMIP4k video out. (PS 650W)

Sys 3 Laptop 'Clevo' i7 6700K @ 3.0ghz, 16gb ram, 250gb SSd + 2Tb hdd,   nvidia 940 M graphics. VP14 & 17 via humble bundle. Plus Edius 8WG Win 10pro (1909)