Comments

beerandchips wrote on 9/18/2003, 7:51 AM
Just curious as to what anyone is planning on using this for. I would like to know its functionality. A reason to buy maybe.. Thanks.
Jay Gladwell wrote on 9/18/2003, 9:07 AM
At $1600 it would be a hard-sell for me!
ReneH wrote on 9/18/2003, 10:35 AM
Did'nt see any demo for Vegas yet, am I worng?
StormMarc wrote on 9/18/2003, 12:53 PM
Actually it's $799 if you own any boris products like graffiti etc.

I'm very interested to hear how it integrates with Vegas. I have been leaning toward AE but Red if it works well within vegas sounds like it could put Vegas on some serious steroids!

Marc
Jay Gladwell wrote on 9/18/2003, 1:05 PM
So, actually, if you don't own any Boris products, it's still $1600! ;o)
StormMarc wrote on 9/18/2003, 5:28 PM
Can't imagine the street price being $1600 but who knows. Have you checked around? Also you could probably buy an old copy of Boris Effects on Ebay and use that to upgrade. That's what I did with Vegas.

Marc
PAW wrote on 9/20/2003, 2:48 AM
StormMarc

The integration works well a couple of things to be aware off though

There is no media generator plugin but that is not a show stopper I just insert an empty event on the timeline and work with that

It is pretty awesome to be able to add Video FX and transitons through RED within Vegas.

It takes titling to a new level within Vegas, in just minutes I added type on text with flames at the base of each character, multiple light sources etc

It is hard to describe all that can be done you need to try it I am still getting to grips with RED it is an amazing piece of software.

As well as the NLE integration I also use it with Satish's frameserver and it works well.

If you have any specific questions happy to try and help

PAW
wcoxe1 wrote on 9/20/2003, 7:53 PM
Lest you forget, if you happen to be an "Academic." The price is $599. Somewhat better, unless, of course, you have the salary of an academic.
bjtap wrote on 9/20/2003, 10:01 PM
wcoxel,
I am an academic (well, a teacher anyway) with the salary of an academic and I want to tell you I resemble that remark. Sigh!
Barry
StormMarc wrote on 9/21/2003, 2:49 AM
Thanks for the rundown PAW. A few questions:

1. Do you get realtime previews through the firewire from within RED while it's open in Vegas? Does it update the frame to your firewire preview each time you make a change in Red?

2. Is it speedy now? Boris prodcuts have always seemed so slow responding/rendering compared to other plugins.

Thanks,

Marc
JohnnyRoy wrote on 9/21/2003, 1:37 PM
I had sent an email to Boris asking if they planned to port any of their less expensive products to Vegas and they said YES. So there might be Vegas plugin’s for Boris FX and GRAFFITI in the works. You might want to send them an email so they know there are others who are interested but don’t have an extra $1600 lying around.

~jr
mjroddy wrote on 9/21/2003, 1:43 PM
Try this:
http://www.borisfx.com/html/products/RED/
And take the Tour. Should explain a lot. -mjr
[r]Evolution wrote on 9/21/2003, 2:12 PM
The integration works well a couple of things to be aware off though

There is no media generator plugin but that is not a show stopper I just insert an empty event on the timeline and work with that

It is pretty awesome to be able to add Video FX and transitons through RED within Vegas.

It takes titling to a new level within Vegas, in just minutes I added type on text with flames at the base of each character, multiple light sources etc

It is hard to describe all that can be done you need to try it I am still getting to grips with RED it is an amazing piece of software.

As well as the NLE integration I also use it with Satish's frameserver and it works well.

If you have any specific questions happy to try and help

PAW
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This post tottally confused me. I thought BORIS RED 3 was suppossed to integrate w/ VEGAS. If it has no media generator, how did you use it with VEGAS?

Do I open BORIS RED 3, complete my edit, then import into VEGAS? If so this is not integration. It's the same as it's always been. HELP!

Lamont
Elizabeth Lowrey wrote on 9/22/2003, 12:50 AM
You put a clip, any visual clip whether still, video, generated media, etc., in the Vegas timeline. You then select Boris RED 3 from the list of effects on the Video FX tab and drag and drop it on top of the desired clip in the Vegas TL. This automatically invokes a dialog that shows RED as an applied effect with a button to "launch Boris RED" to take you into the RED interface itself.

Once there, you will see one track in the RED TL -- the one you applied RED to from the Vegas TL, be that a black clip or a piece of video. As a first matter, you may want to set the duration of the RED effect to match the length of the Vegas clip to which you have applied RED, as RED uniquely defaults to a composition length of one second in the Vegas plugin version. After that, you simply construct your effect, adding all the filters, text, generated media, imported media, etc., you like right into the RED TL. While working within RED, you have the benefits of the lightning swift Open GL previews when constructing the types of effects which that technology is designed to accelerate (e.g., pretty much a layer or element that is being moved around). When you're done with construction, hit "apply" and you will be returned to Vegas, where the effect is immediately previewable and will be saved with the Vegas project. (You can also save the RED comp independently to any location/file name you desire.)

Of course, since RED comps can be very complex with a lot of generated elements, you will need a MUCH swifter computer than mine (single Athlon 1333 MHz with 512 MB DDR) in order to see anything close to actual frame rates during Vegas preview, even at very low resolution. But you can always manually move the CTI to key points within the effected clip in Vegas and obtain a preview of that frame at any resolution you choose if you wait for that frame to be generated.
PeterWright wrote on 9/22/2003, 2:47 AM
Thanks for a great explanation of the workflow Elizabeth.

So, does the preview you see in Red play "live" or is it a selected frame at a time?

(I hope they can change the default to be the same length as the event dropped onto.)

To be honest, I don't really need Red for the type of work that I do, but that doesn't mean I won't get it!
ReneH wrote on 9/22/2003, 8:26 AM
Borisfx not appearing on vegas FX tab. What gives? Was looking for it but no dice. Help please. I have a demo of Borisfx.
PeterWright wrote on 9/23/2003, 9:59 AM
Several posts have confirmed that the current demo only works standalone.
The full version, and the soon-to-be-finished new demo will both work inside Vegas.
ReneH wrote on 9/23/2003, 7:41 PM
Thanks for the info.
Wondering wrote on 9/24/2003, 1:39 AM
Couldn't get anything to work in the Demo download, click here & there, doesn't seem to have any effect. Luckily, it didn't crash.

Maybe it's the Demo standalone issue.

I really wondered at the learning curve for this RED?

Anyway, at such a steep price, will leave it at the Demo stage.


Regards
Udi wrote on 9/24/2003, 4:09 AM
I downloaded the demo, and the version 2 manual.
Most of trhe thing are the same as V2.
In the manual there are tutorial that are very helpfull.

I did motion tracking and rotoscoping - fantastic.
Did chroma keying - MUCH better result than with Vegas tools.
Also, the 3D text capabilities with shaddow and lights - fantastics.

Waiting for the demo to be integrated with Vegas.

Udi
PAW wrote on 9/24/2003, 4:27 AM

EClaire, thanks for the response I am on holiday Spain and just checking in every now and then.

StormMac hopefully eclaire's response answered your questions on preview etc

As far as speed goes RED3 seems fine to me. It is relative to what you are doing though. Some compositions with several effects/filters can mean a big render but that is too be expected with a complex project.

On a simple title the renders are pretty quick if I compare them to a similar text piece in Vegas.

Hope that helps, PAW
Elizabeth Lowrey wrote on 9/24/2003, 2:50 PM
Peter,

The preview *within RED* will play back just as fast as your system will allow given the type of effect you've constructed and given the caching and preview options you've selected. If, for example, you have the minimum recommended (or better) OGL video card support, are working in draft (Open GL enabled) mode, and your effect consists of 3D text flying around the screen, your preview will almost certainly be FASTER than realtime because all the "rendering" is done in Open GL, through the video card. The CPU doesn't touch it. If, on the other hand, you have a keying filter, a lighting filter, and a Light Zoom filter all working simultaneously in an effect and you hit the spacebar to play it back, your CPU will be doing most if not all of the work and this means traditional software rendering of each frame, which takes time. As each frame is rendered, assuming you have "cache frames" enabled, then the effect will utilize those frames on subsequent playback until there is a clearing of the cache or a change to the effect, which clears the cache automatically. Once all frames have been rendered and cached, you can preview the effect in real time.

So it really depends on the TYPE of animation as to how fast it will preview and to what extent Open GL will become involved to accelerate things. Tim Wilson of Boris FX gave a very handy rule of thumb to understand this (paraphrasing): Open GL is for "moving stuff around fast", or MSAF. An animation of a static photo, text, a 3D object, etc., is what benefits most from Open GL. Without filters, even several of these elements together playback FASTER than realtime on my system (Athlon 1333MHz, 512 MB DDR, nVidia/Leadtek GeForce 3) when you hit the spacebar, sometimes dramatically faster, which can be a problem of a new kind.:-).

Add in filters and you throw things back to the CPU and software, which, in terms of time to construct a preview, can be anywhere from slightly sluggish to "go get a bite to eat and come back in a few minutes", depending upon the length and complexity of the effect and the resolution and quality settings in the comp window.

In case you were also obliquely referencing my post under another thread re the issue of a "single frame", what I meant by that is that in the Vegas plugin version of RED, you will only see *WITHIN RED* that particular frame of a clip in the Vegas timeline, to which RED has been applied, that lies beneath the location of the CTI. You will see that single frame in RED for the duration of the effect, so I don't mean that the track in RED itself is only one frame, just that RED can't access anything but the material that lies directly under the CTI in Vegas. This limitation won't effect your ability to animate or filter the layer within RED except where the dynamic content of the clip is such that you need to time something in the animation with the happening of an event in the media itself.

This won't be a problem for me though as I have always developed the habit and preferred work style from using RED in Premiere of applying it to a "slug", a "dummy" clip of a solid color that I then delete from the composition itself once inside RED. I've just always preferred the logistcal aesthetics, if you will, of that approach. My clips to which I apply RED in the NLE timeline are placeholder clips only, not media for use in the animation. And of course any media you import or insert directly into RED once *inside* RED itself will have all frames accessible as normal. The limiation mentioned before strictly applies to media directly in the Vegas timeline to which RED has been applied.

Hope this clarifies.
FadeToBlack wrote on 9/24/2003, 4:54 PM
Elizabeth Lowrey wrote on 9/24/2003, 8:36 PM
GG,

Your understanding of what I wrote is correct, i.e., yes, RED can only access a proxy frame of the clip in the Vegas timeline to which RED is applied. That proxy frame is determined by location of the CTI in Vegas.

The workaround -- which, as I mentioned, is not a workaround at all for me but my preferred manner of constructing a RED effect going back to my first use of RED 2.5 in Premiere, which DOES frame serve each and every frame of the clip to which RED has been applied -- is to simply add/import the desired clip to the *RED* timeline once inside RED. All frames are then accessible to whatever media you choose. It's really that simple.

I have always preferred that way of working because usually I'm using RED to do far more than to, for example, add a single filter to a clip. I may have 10-20 pieces of media in an effect. So showing a VIDEO clip in the timeline of an NLE with an applied effect is less informative, in a shorthand sense, about what's going on for the duration of that clip than having a staple slug clip that you can instantly recognize by convention to represent the placement of a RED effect. I use, you guessed it, a solid clip of red within the NLE to represent the geographical PLACE in the project where a RED effect has been constructed. Of course what I see on the monitor or preview when I place the Vegas CTI over that clip is not the color red but whatever the content of the effect is at that point.

But I would respectfully disagree that this is in any way shape or form the equivalent of using the RED engine. In the engine, you must first save the effect as a RED file of some kind. Then you must render and export it as an AVI, taking the time each occasion to set a filename, path, and render settings (e.g., uncompressed, DV codec, better field rendering, etc.). You then must import the rendered media within the NLE. You then must hope that the length of the final effect and the way it transitions to adjacent material, etc., is just the way you want it. If you discover that everything was perfect except that the effect should be 15 frames longer, that means closing out the NLE (I do this to conserve system resources), going back into RED, making the changes, doing the whole render setting and waiting process again, reimporting into the NLE, and viewing the final effect again.

Now compare that with applying RED to ANY clip in the Vegas timeline. If the clip contains dynamic material you need to see all of while in RED, then just delete it once inside RED, hit the "add video clip" icon, select the file, and voila, the video clip appears inside RED in its totality. Or, as I do, apply RED to a slug to begin with and add ALL of the media you want within RED.

From that point on, and with the exception noted below, it functions identically to every other plugin version of RED. In the above example, that means to add 15 frames to the clip, you simply stretch the applied clip in Vegas by 15 frames, launch RED from the Vegas clip effect list, type in the new duration, and hit apply. (This is without question one place where Vegas integration is more time consuming than its integration with Premiere and other hosts. With the Premiere plug, the comp length defaults to whatever the applied clip length is. You have to do an extra step with the Vegas plugin version . . . change the duration of the effect length itself.)

But the effect is saved with your Vegas project and does not require separate RED settings saves, AVI renders and file namings, and NLE clip imports. The effect resides with the Vegas project and you can preview it, to a greater or lesser extent depending upon the capabilities of your system, within the NLE as soon as you've applied it. If you want to see a full res, full frame rate preview within Vegas, simply do the selective render deal for that portion of the timeline as you would with any other effect in Vegas and wait for the render.

If the change you wanted to make to the effect was, say, to substitute a different piece of media or tweak the settings of a light zoom filter, then the Vegas plugin would offer you all the same advantages that any other plugin version of RED would offer. Simply go into the effect, substitute the desired media for the face track of the involved track, or make your filter tweaks as needed, hit apply, and bang you're back in the your NLE to continue editing.

I'll add a purely personal aside to this, which is that when I bought RED (using Premiere at that time as my primary NLE), I THOUGHT I would always opt for the integrated version of the program because of the kinds of convenience factors enumerated above. And to be sure, if I just want a really smooth, sub-pixel accurate pan and scan on a large photo, the plugin is the ticket. But for complex effects of any length, I PREFER using the engine because I find that I've usually already structured the integration of such effects pretty well in my mind and I don't have any need to keep going back into the NLE for reference. I will know, for example, that I want an effect to last for the entirety of a coordianted musical cue, so I just import that music into RED engine and work with that reference or set the duration to equal the time of that cue. That allows me to take advantage of the faster software rendering (sometimes markedly so) of which the engine is capable. And although this is only just a hunch and not something I would swear to or can back up, I feel that in having only one program active, my system resources can be entirely devoted to making that program, engine, run as fast as it can.

So for a very simple effect, I'll use the plugin. But for more complex effects that I expect to spend a lot of time creating anyway, I much prefer the engine.

Hope this clarifies.

Elizabeth