Bought HD camcorder, did I make a big mistake??

drguitar0001 wrote on 5/24/2010, 5:42 PM
The story,

I found a new Samsung HD camcorder that uses (reusable) SD cards for video storage. In addition, it has good battery life and a great picture.

You know the rest... I put the H.264 HD encoded video in VMS 8 platinum and the video in the preview window is useless in that it studders and jumps frames.

I am running Win XP on a newer Dell machine with

Core i7 920 (Quad core @ 2.66ghz)
ATI Radeon 4870
9 gig ram (only 3.5ish gig works with XP)
Tons of hard drive space...

I regularly edit my video in VMS 8 platinum. So:

1. did I throw money away, the camcorder is useless
2. should I return the camcorder and buy a camcorder that uses MPEG2 compression
3. should I buy VMS 9 because it handles H.264 HD codec much smoother

I must admit that I really did not consider that my computer would not run this codec smoother in VMS 8 platinum. On top of it, when I look at the processing level in the Task Manager, the CPU does not seem to be having a hard time with the codec so it must be VMS 8?

I'm sad and confused. Is there an answer?

Mike

Comments

musicvid10 wrote on 5/24/2010, 6:18 PM
Your i7 should give a relatively smooth preview, unless there are a lot of effects on the timeline.

-- Are you setting the project properties to match the media properties? Vegas does not do this automatically. Directions on how to "match media properties" abound on this forum and are readily available in the Vegas help files.

-- Do you have a bunch of other stuff running on your computer? Are your antivirus programs and automatic updates turned off?

-- MANY of the professionals using Vegas Pro 8 or 9 routinely render their AVCHD material to NeoScene before editing. It just saves a load of headaches. After doing the steps above, you should download the trial version and give it a spin.

Is there a particular reason to run XP on such a powerful machine? As you already know, XP does not take full advantage.

In short:
-- It is not your fault
-- It is not your camera's fault
-- It is not Vegas' fault

AVCHD is a fine shoot / delivery format, one of the best we've got. Unfortunately, the very characteristics that make it so also make it difficult, if not impractical as an editing format. High compression, intraframe encoding with a GOP that is sometimes hundreds of frames in length, and it is a wonder how any system can handle the trillions of calculations needed just to do a simple edit.

Try the optimization tweaks above, try NeoScene, and enjoy the quality your new camera is able to produce.
drguitar0001 wrote on 5/24/2010, 8:45 PM
Yep, I believe I matched media properties and it still studders and drops tons of frames in the preview playback.

There is nothing "relatively smooth" about the preview. Is there something I am doing wrong? Do I need to pre-render the footage in another format to use it?

As I said before, when previewing the video, the CPU is not running even at 40% so I do not think it is the CPU. I am not running anything in the background. And you say it is not the VMS program and that it should run the Mpeg 4 files smoothly.

I must admit that I am stumped.
musicvid10 wrote on 5/24/2010, 9:08 PM
Yep, I believe I matched media properties
It is a specific procedure. You would remember if you did it.

Please confirm by posting your full file details as reported by MediaInfo,
and also posting you full project properties. This is not a trivial consideration when previewing AVCHD
drguitar0001 wrote on 5/25/2010, 6:47 AM
Well, you have given me a glimmer of hope. I do not know what you are talking about when you say,

"Please confirm by posting your full file details as reported by MediaInfo,"

What is "Mediainfo"?

When I posted that I "Matched Media Properties", I did so two different ways. The first way was to have the program read the file and match properties when I first picked a new project. The next way was to alter the properties in the "Project Video Properties" icon (Alt+Enter) to the top left of the preview window.

I have looked for other ways to do this here by typing in your "match media properties" to the search here at the forum, but found only vague references there to other possible posts that do not seem to exist.

With your latest post, I realize I must be way off base and am hopeful that there is a way to fix the radical studdering problem. Can you point me to an answer?

Thanks in advance...
musicvid10 wrote on 5/25/2010, 8:03 AM
The "Match Media Settings" icon is in the top right corner of the Project Properties dialog.

It looks like a yellow folder. You click on it, then use the Explorer to navigate to the same file you are importing, then click on that file icon, click "Apply," and then click "OK." Did you do this?

You will also want to set your Preview settings to "Preview / Good," disable "Scale preview to fit..." and perhaps disable "Simulate Device Aspect" in addition to disabling any effects, pan/crop, etc.

I did not say that matching project properties to your media will cure your AVCHD preview problem instantly, however, it is the necessary first step. This knowledgebase article will give you more information than I can:
Achieving smooth playback in the Video Preview window

MediaInfo is a freeware media file information utility. You can find it using a Google search.
david_f_knight wrote on 5/25/2010, 8:10 AM
My understanding is that HD was not supported in VMS8 (I never had it so I don't know). As far as I know you must have at least VMSP9 to support HD. (Version 10 should be released on June 8, 2010, so I wouldn't go out and buy version 9 now.)

Incidentally, it is not Windows XP that prevents utilizing all your RAM, it is that you have a 32-bit version operating system that prevents its use.
musicvid10 wrote on 5/25/2010, 8:20 AM
AVCHD support was added in Vegas Platinum 8.0d. I should have asked. I'm not sure how much playback is improved in VMSP 9, however it uses essentially the same engine as Vegas Pro 8.

The OP could download the trial version of Platinum 9 and give it a spin using the same playback tips, which are valid for any version. Or wait for 10 (I'm surprised the announcement was leaked).
drguitar0001 wrote on 5/26/2010, 11:32 AM
I have VMS 8.0d and it does support AVCHD. In addition, I did let the program "Match Media Settings" in the Project Properties dialog. I also followed steps for "smooth preview" that you linked to. The only things I did not do are "prerender the video" or "down convert to an intermediate format".

Still, the video studders and drops huge sections of frames when previewing.

One thing I noticed was that when I allow VMS8 to match media settings for me, it comes up with the wrong setting of 50fps instead of 60fps. If I correct the mistake it does not fix the studdering problem.

I think I will try VMS 9 and see if it is any better.
drguitar0001 wrote on 5/26/2010, 11:54 AM
I just tried VMS 9 with my video files and it studders just the same as VMS 8. In addition, the program reads the file incorrectly as a 50 or 100fps file rather than a 60fps file. My camcorder says that it is recording in 1,920 x 1,080 60i. The compression format is H.264 HD .I ask again, does Sony VMS offer usable support for this standard video compression format or should I return this camcorder. I have been a big supporter of this video editing program all the way back to the days when Sonic Foundry was selling the program. I would like to think that the same folks who help to set these video codecs would support them with their own software (but this might be asking a bit too much).

Any thoughts??
musicvid10 wrote on 5/26/2010, 12:12 PM
As mentioned, Cineform NeoScene is the solution employed by many Vegas Pro users. Beyond explaining the difficulties in reading AVCHD files, there is not much I can add except to reiterate that AVCHD is not a good editing format.

Perhaps you will gain some additional insights by studying at the Vegas Pro forum. As mentioned, many there are achieving smooth timeline playback with quads and i7s.

But since you keep mentioning giving up on the camcorder, an HDV solution might well be less frustrating to you.
drguitar0001 wrote on 5/26/2010, 1:19 PM
"an HDV solution might well be less frustrating to you."

Could you make a suggestion? I need to replace two aging MiniDV camcorders and would love to move to a flash memory camcorder.
musicvid10 wrote on 5/26/2010, 1:30 PM
I have some ideas, but why don't you ask your question over on the Pro forum.
You'll get some really detailed responses there.
RudeJelly wrote on 5/27/2010, 7:20 AM
I had a similar issue when I first started using my new camera (Canon HF200). I too had thought I made a big mistake.

I found that if I did not use the top recording bitrate (I think i backed it off from 24Mbps to 17Mbps) that the camera supported, then my preview and my final output no longer stuttered.

You might try experimenting with your camera recording bitrate settings before chucking the camera for something else.

RJ
Ivan Lietaert wrote on 5/27/2010, 9:13 AM
You need to transcode your files first, using mpeg streamclip (free) or cineform's neoscene ($99).
Or wait a few days and upgrade for VMS 10 HD ($69), which is supposed to handle native avchd files without a problem. Let's wait and see!

Ivan