I know about that.....what I was saying is I was told my project could be up to specs and then become blown out after it is transferred over.(??)

This came up after I mentioned some local commercials looked terrible and I was told it probably had to do with the transfer. Many spots done by this same guy look blown out. I assumed he was just screwing up on his end but was later told it could be the station's fault.

Keith

I worked for a TV station in a small market [Barstow, CA] a couple years ago. They would send locally produced content like ads to AdLink in L.A. on 3/4" tapes. They did not want to upgrade to BetaSP, so they sent the 100% digital file onto a 100% analog tape, to be reconverted to MPEG at the AdLink office. No one from AdLink could explain why only BetaSP and 3/4" tapes were the only delivery formats. MiniDV, preconverted MPEGs, hard drive delivery... none could be used.

Result: ALL of the ads produced in-house looked 2nd rate on broadcast TV. Oversaturated reds, washed out blacks, loss of generation noise, flatness - were my biggest complaints to the TV station owners.

Now that I am freelancing I'll deliver the final commercial to LIGHTNING DUBBS and have them master transfer to BetaSP, which will be aired. No complaints from that route. Best of luck with your delivery.


Gary

Thanks

Trichome et al,
I just experienced the same loss of quality here when the local cable company had to transfer my :30 spots (on DVD) to Beta before loading into their programming system. Myself and my client are a bit disappointed with the degradation.

Is Lightning Dubbs' process different then what my cable provider is doing? Do you think the quality will be maintained? Or should I be rendering to something completely different?

Certainly going from DVD to SP isn't a good path!
DV to SP would be a better route to follow. Problem that I've noticed is a lot of old hands seem to think composite video is an acceptable interconnect when making dubs and it isn't. I always use either component or SDI unless it's a DV dub and then it's just 1394.
Best advice I'd give anyone having dubs made and especially if it's cross format, ask to see the result, if it looks like garbage refuse to pay, if they will not let you see the result just go elsewhere. If nothing else, ask HOW they make dubs, not just the gear they use but how they connect it, more quality can get lost in the interconnect than anything else.
Bob.

Thanks Bob...I'm a newbie at the TV stuff (my work has mainly been DVD Productions for companies and Weddings).

Do I bypass rendering as MPEG (1 or 2 for DVD) all together and render as DV? I'm not certain how I do that, but am assuming it is a option in Vegas when choosing how to render.

To render to DV choose Video for Windows (AVI), then pick the appropriate DV template, probably either the first NTSC or PAL selection listed.

Thanks Chienworks. I should have known that (DUH). I create AVI files all the time when I'm pre-rendering comps. So I just need to make sure that the TV stations and the Cable Company will accept AVI files.

So I just need to make sure that the TV stations and the Cable Company will accept AVI files.

I have yet to see a station that will accept AVI files.
The absolute best thing to do is ask the station what they prefer. It could range anywhere from SVHS to Digital BetaCam. If miniDV is acceptable, you're in luck.
BetaCamSP is still the preferred format of choice for a lot of TV stations.
Cable companies are anyone's guess.
What a lot of folks in my area do is master to miniDV and then have the tape dubbed to BetaCamSP at a local post house. The local post houses have Sony DSR series decks with component output so the quality loss is minimal.

Mike

Thanks Mike. I guess I'll wait and see what these guys tell me. It's always a drag when ya can't get the word diredtly from the tech people (verses the sales people).

In Mastering to MiniDV, would that be the print to tape option? Sorry if this a dumb question, but as I said, I'm pretty green to the TV/Broadcast arena.

Being that these spots are already on the air (looking okay , but not as good as they could), all your guys' suggestions/experience/help is greatly appreciated so that I can address this ASAP (for my client's sake and my reputation's sake :) ). Thanks again et al!

Hi Frank.
Yes, Print To Tape is what you're looking for.
I work at a cable company and what we typically "want to see" is:
1 min black (but not necessary) (that' mainly an "old standard" to get out of the potentially bad part of a tape)(they say that if a tape will have drop out, it is most likely to be in the first and last minute of the tape)(I don't know if that applies to DV.)
10 sec - 1 min bars/tone (Personally, I use 10 sec)
10 sec - 30 sec of slate (I use 10)
5 - 10 sec of black (I use 5)
and start
then no less than 10 sec of black at the end.
As noted earlier in this thread, though, you really should check with your cable co and find out what they want to see.

Thanks so much mjroddy. Great information! And just so that I'm clear (again...sorry if these questions are a bit annoying), does bars/tone refer to colors bars? Does slate refer to a test tone (what frequency tone is the standard)? And when you say black, should I actually create a solid black or just leave blank space?

I'm also taking your advice and trying to get a hold of the techs at both the networks and the cable provider, but I’m in the "hurry up and wait" mode right now...waiting for a call back.

Thanks again for your input!

bars - color bars
tone - audio level tone frequency shouldnt matter
slate- info, such as runtime,timecode,producer etc
actually create black 16,16,16


Best advice is to talk to the station,

Good luck!!

Don't worry about questions, Frank. As they say, "The only bad question is one you already know the answer to." This forum is so amazingly helpful, you need not be bashful with "novis" questions. You'll almost always get the helpful info you're looking for.

Technical aspirations aside. We are dealing with people who make assumptions.
If you can't be there for the transfer to their native format (be it tape of carousel library)...

Label up. If it is NTSC, state that pedestal level was assured throughout the process. The benefit of the old "DAA", "ADD", "DDD" representation on music CDs in the 1980s holds here. If 7.5IRE was the level you had throughout, even if you had to push it up along the way, state that pedestal was assured. Same goes for 4:1:1 from shoot, through acquisition and delivered target.

This is common for all varieties of PAL, NTSC, Japan NTSC etc.
Plenty more to state on video legal, but also, if you can be sure this is true, state that all levels are between 16 and 235. No superblack, no super white. If you have colour bars, state where they were inserted and whether the project is assured against upto these levels.

It never hurts to ask what the studio needs to direct transfer. They might require timecode starting at 01:00:00:00. If you don't deliver it, your :30 may go through their "conformance thresher" and your impression of balance, normalisation, deflection and colourist oriented measurements may end up shifting.

The people will probably be quite smart. A lot of these activities are based on the findings of the best workflow based on the companies own ENG (etc) experiences. However their assumptions may have been countered by you already. So provide the message with your media.

Thanks for the wealth of information and words of encouragement. I found out yesterday that the Cable Company would prefer MiniDV over DVD (with "format" nearly exactly as mjroddy described earlier...good onya mate!). I just picked up a vmail from the TV Station stating that they want it on DVCPro.

So it looks like I should be okay with the Cable Company, but what's the best way to transfer MiniDV to DVCPro (if the TV Station won't do it)? Thanks again to all the experts on this board.

Thanks

If you can't make the dub your self (I know I couldn't), then you're obligated to go to a dubbing house or renting a DVCPro deck and dumping to tape from your computer.
Even though they have a preference - I'd GUESS that if they can accept DVCPro, they can accept MiniDV. Give 'em a call.