Burning HD content to DVD specifics?

MattR wrote on 7/30/2008, 1:05 PM

Yes, this topic again, but I'm looking for specific clarifications on some things.

1. The DVDA 5 manual says you can burn high definition content to a regular DVD for playback in an blu-ray disc player, and it keeps mentioning "BDMV" format. But further searches in the manual and here in the forums haven't helped that much in understanding that. Is that just specifying underlying details, or is "BDMV" a setting I have to select somewhere?

2. What would be the exact workflow? Here's what I'm trying:
a. Start a new project
b. Choose "single movie"
c. Choose "Blu-ray Disc" for disc format
d. Choose video and audio formats that correspond to my output from Vegas, which in my case is 1920x1080-60i, 16:9 (and I'm trying both MPEG-2 and AVC as formats); and AC-3 stereo for the audio.
d. Point the "Open Media" dialog to the appropriate output files from Vegas (the project opens with the expected video and audio on the timeline).
e. Choose "make Blu-ray Disc" and then "Burn" following all the appropriate dialogs.

That seems like what I should be doing, but when I view the resulting disc in Windows Explorer, it shows up as empty, zero bytes. I am using Windows XP, and I understand there is the UDF 2.5 issue, but doesn't DVDA 5 install a driver for that for XP? Another post in these forums mentions that if the DVD shows up in "My Computer" as a CD, then UDF 2.5 is installed, and that's how my disc is showing up -- it just doesn't show any content.

Also, I have tried both keeping the default target media size in "properties" as 25GB and also changing it to 4.7GB. The problem with changing to 4.7GB is that if I'm importing files that are already compliant, I get an error on compiling the .iso and it doesn't finish. The only way I can get the 4.7GB setting to work is if I import something DVDA will have to recompress, THEN it will make the .iso.

But, the resulting disc STILL shows zero bytes in Explorer. The obvious thing would be to just pop it into a blu-ray player and just see if it works, but I don't have access to one right now and won't for a little while. I was just using this "down time" to explore the DVDA 5's capabilities. And then of course there's always the possibility that the player wouldn't play such a disc anyway, even if it WERE created correctly.

Just trying to get my ducks in a row and a better understanding throughout the work flow.

Comments

MattR wrote on 7/30/2008, 3:16 PM

OK, I was able to try the discs (DVD-RW) in a blu-ray player (a Samsung BD-UP5000) and they don't play, reporting an error "this disc cannot be read." The manual for this player says it can read DVD-RW video discs, but does not specify if that means *only* regular video discs as opposed to something with blu-ray content.

Now, I'm perfectly willing to accept that this particular player might simply not be able to play high-def content stored on a regular DVD disc, but before I give up, I want to make sure I'm doing everything right in creating the disc. The thing that still has me questioning that is that the disc burned out of DVDA 5 shows up as empty in Windows Explorer.

nolonemo wrote on 7/30/2008, 5:02 PM

My workflow is to render to BD elementary stream in Vegas and render audio to AC-3. I bring into DVDA5 set for BD project with 25GB size. I create menus, and then author to ISO (DVDA does not recompress). I then burn the ISO image to DVDR using Nero.

The resulting DVD shows as empty in Windows Explorer (XP Pro). The ISO file, if mounted as a virtual disc, will play using BD playback software (PowerDVD 8). The DVDR will play in a BD/HD-DVD drive on the computer using PowerDVD 8).

I have not tried to play the disks back on a standalone player.

Having said that, there seems to be a lot of variation in what will play back on what. You should try going to Best Buy or someplace and trying the disc on a bunch of different players. BD is by no means a mature technology. Remember the early days of DVDR, when some players would play + but not -, or -R but not -RW, etc.

BTW, from earlier experiments with burning HD-DVD to DVDR, I foudn that using premium media is very important. Using cheap media will cause stuttering (I theorize that because of the high bitrates, stutterin results if there's too much error correction going on during playback).

But to answer your question, I think that the disc should show up as empty in Windows Explorer.

MattR wrote on 7/30/2008, 5:19 PM

"I think that the disc should show up as empty in Windows Explorer."

Excellent, that was the main thing perplexing me. Thanks.

As for taking such a disc to the local retailer and trying it on various players, that's a great idea.

Do you burn the .iso to DVD using Nero because it just doesn't work for you in DVDA 5?

Melachrino wrote on 7/30/2008, 5:35 PM

I have not been successful at the moment with using DVDA 5 (legitimate) to burn a short HD test clip onto a regular DVD, primarily I think because my workflow is wrong and I cannot find where to specify Blueray, etc.

Having said that, I have been partially successful in burning HD content to regular DVD from within Vegas 8 Pro, where the Blue Ray settings seem to be quite clear. I have played the test DVD's in Sony BlueRay players at Circuit City and Best Buy. The players recognize them as BD-ROM and indicate the quality rate at about 25Mbps. The video is great ( on large HD TV's) the sound in AC3 also good BUT, after a while, the video and sound drop out, then the video resumes but no sound. I use good quality DVD blanks.

These stores do not have PS3 for tests so I do not know if my hybrid DVD's play in them or not.

And yes, regular DVD players do not recognize these hybrid discs and Windows Explorer does not open them or show anything. I read in another forum that there is a version update coming for BlueRay in order to make them readable in Windows Explorer .

Other forums suggest some very complicated and lengthy ways of making HD in regular DVD. It would seem that Vegas 8 and DVDA 5 should do a good job without so much fuzz. Suggestions welcome.

nolonemo wrote on 7/30/2008, 6:41 PM

Matt, back in the day of DVDA2, it was not a reliable burner, so many people used it to create the Video_TS folder and use Nero to burn the DVD, I just stayed with the workflow I was used to, particularly since someone had reported problems getting DVDA5 to author and burn 4.7GB BD projects.

Mel:
use Matt's workflow, but set the project size to 25GB, and prepare the ISO. Make sure your rendered assets are less than the 4.7 GB limit (around 18 min of 25mbps HDV?) Then burn the ISO to DVD. There are many free programs you can download to burn the ISO if you don't have a burning program like Nero already installed.

Melachrino wrote on 8/5/2008, 7:15 PM

Nolonemo and MattR:
Thanks for the suggestions.

I captured a short, 2 minute HDV clip from my Canon HV20 via Vegas 8 Pro in M2T format and placed it in DVDA 5 per your workflow. The preview played good both in video and sound. Then I made a BlueRay disc format onto a regular DVD per template accepting the 18 Mbps default. The rendering and ISO image preparation went well, though slow. I used the DVDA 5 burning program instead of any other and this step was fast as expected.

The resulting DVD played very well in Sony and Samsung BlueRay players at Circuit City and Best Buy. Playing was smooth, no stutters or jerks, no dropouts neither in video nor sound. So, it seems this process works quite well from within DVDA 5.

So, why do you recommend burning the created ISO image with Nero or other programs ? What am I missing ?

I will next test longer HDV clips upto the full high quality capacity of BlueRay format in a regular DVD.

nolonemo wrote on 8/5/2008, 9:10 PM

Someone previously had had problems trying to do what you have done successfully. The workaround was to make an ISO using the 25GB setting and then burn that to a 4.7 DVDR. A lot of people (like me) were in the habit of having DVDA create the VIDEO_TS folder when doing DVDs because in the older versions DVDA's burning engine wasn't very reliable. If your workflow is working for you,, I say stay with what's working.

nolonemo wrote on 8/6/2008, 9:43 AM

Re: seeing contents in XP Win Explorer, check this thread for a driver:
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=607092&Replies=6

Melachrino wrote on 8/7/2008, 10:00 AM

I tested DVDA 5 with a longer HDV clip and a faster bitrate (23Mbps) using my previous (MattR) workflow, all from within DVDA 5, except capture which was done via Vegas 8 Pro.

The resulting regular DVD in BD format had nice picture and sound in large screen HD TV's but video was jerky in a Samsung BD Player at Circuit City.

Apparently, according to another thread, some present BD players choke on fast bitrates so I guess I will go back to the recommended default of 18Mbps in my next tests. Inadvertently, I had previously tested Sony players at higher bitrates (greater than 18Mbps) and they also stuttered quite a bit.

As before, rendering and image preparation was very slow, disc burning fast.

Hope we can get the final formula right soon ...

nolonemo wrote on 8/7/2008, 10:45 AM

I would first check your media. I had jerky video playback with HD-DVD burned to DVDR using standard media. But the same disc authored with premium Taiyo Yuden media played smoothly. The BD spec provides for bitrates of up to 50mpbs as I recall, if you're burning at 25 any player should be able to handle that. 18 is probably lower than commercial Blu-ray releases.

Melachrino wrote on 8/7/2008, 2:51 PM

You may be right, although I am using Sony branded conventional DVD+R.

On the oher hand, I re-processed and burned the longer test clip at 1920x1080i in DVDA 5 in BD format at 18Mbps default and the disc played flawlessly at Circuit City in both a Samsung and a Sony Blueray player.

The HD specs may include faster bitrates but maybe the hardware is not yet up to it. (Burners and players). Consider that the regular DVD is specified at 8Mbps. The HD ATSC spec is 19Mbps max and it does a fantastic, full definition and motion job in 1080i. Therefore, I surmise that 18Mbps should not be bad at all.

nolonemo wrote on 8/7/2008, 4:06 PM

The fact that 18 is ok but 25 is not does not rule out a media problem. The player has to reread and do error correction when it finds an error. A 25mbps data stream has 40% more data, therefore in theory there could be 40% more errors to correct. That difference in error correction could account for stuttering.

Or it could be something else entirely. But media is the place to start. Just becaus it's branded Sony doesn't mean it's premium media. The only way to tell is from the media ID.

Melachrino wrote on 8/9/2008, 12:00 PM

Nolonemo:

Your suggestion of using better DVD media is certainly worth trying. If the better media allows burning regular DVD's at higher bitrates and the players do not choke on errors, then picture quality should be improved to the limit of the system.

I want to thank you and MattR for commenting on the general subject of HD in regular DVD's.

I have now tried edited HDV clips in Vegas 8 Pro from my Canon HV20 with simple fades, subtitles and background music, about 17 minutes long, processed for BD and burned in DVDA 5 at 18Mbps.

The results were again very good, and played flawlessly in large HDTV's with Sony, LG and Samsung BD players at Circuit City. No stutters, breakups or blockies.

Next test will be with a High Definition resolution chart to verify static losses, if any. And, find out how to edit and process HDV clips with the combination Vegas 8 Pro and DVDA 5 but avoiding what appears to be double and very lengthy rendering.

Thanks again.

nolonemo wrote on 8/11/2008, 7:35 AM

If you use the stock BD templates in V8, and render the audio to ac3 DVDA should not re-render. You may have to replace the audio in DVDA5 with the AC3 audio, if DVDA imports the audio elementary stream created in Vegas when you render the video. There are both 25mbps and 18mbps templates, as I recall.

So far I have been using the 1440x1080i 25mbps template. I guess I should compare the 1920x1080i template, since that matches the resolution of my TV.

Melachrino wrote on 8/11/2008, 12:12 PM

Aha! You read my mind on my next question.

The DVDA 5 has variable, selectable bitrate for burning the BD disc in the Optimize menu. (The selected rate is fixed, not VBR). Thus, I have been able to select 18Mbps with my current DVD media and obtain very acceptable results. (I will try better media).

In Vegas 8 Pro the BD templates only show 25 Mbps and 8 Mbps from which I surmize it figures out if you want BD format or regular (low resolution) DVD format.

So my question is where in Vegas 8 Pro can one select or set different bitrates for burning BD format onto conventional DVD's. If I could do this, (select 18Mbps instead of 25Mbps) in Vegas 8 Pro I may be able to burn BD format DVD's without transferring to DVDA 5 for simple HDV movie clips and possibly save a LOT of time.

Any suggestions where this bitrate customization may be available if at all in Vegas 8 Pro ?

nolonemo wrote on 8/11/2008, 12:19 PM

Interesting, I had noticed the 8mpbs template before and thought it was awfully low, but promptly forgot about it. Can you select the bitrate on the "video" tab page if you click the "custom" button to open the template? The way Vegas works with SD is that the template has a bitrate set but you can change it if you want.

Melachrino wrote on 8/17/2008, 6:53 AM

Here is another data point.
I processed and burned a BD format regular DVD in Vegas 8 Pro but using this time the AVC template whose default is 15 Mbps.
It played very well in the same previous BD players (Sony,LG, Samsung). And, I could not discern a quality difference with the previous test in large HDTV sets using DVDA 5 template at 18 Mpbs. I surmise there may be some sweet spot for now in that 15 and 18 Mbps setting.

In either case, the processing times are VERY long even in 2.6 GH, Hyperthreading, 2 GB RAM, computer with external high speed hard disk. 3 to 4 hours for 16 minute HD clip.