Been like this since V4 and probably before. Sorry no workaround.
Butt the clips and then add / restore the fades.

Bob.

Every time I've experienced this situation I've always found that one or both of the Video Events I was adding the Fade to ended on a partial frame. Extending or decreasing the length of the Event(s) to a complete frame has always solved the problem for me.

-Dan

How do you determine that the event ended on a partial frame. How do you keep it from happening. I have never seen this phenomenon until I (recently) started editing HD (m2t).

Vegas can handle any frame rate and any audio sampling rate, etc. all mixed together in the same project and even on the same timeline. I am not sure how this happens, but I think that if the sampling rate for the video and/or the audio are not precisely correct, then even with Quantize enabled in Vegas, the event boundaries may not line up. What Quantize does in Vegas is to force the end of the events to line up with project frame boundaries, but ONLY when you actually snap the end of the events. I think that what happens is that some software sets the frame rate to 29.97 fps (for NTSC) whereas the correct frame rate is 30 * (1000/1001) which is actually 29.97002997.

A "solution" to this problem is to run the Quantize to Frame script, available at this site:

Peach Rock Productions

You can also pick up a copy of their excellent Veggie Toolkit while you are there.

John you stated

"but ONLY when you actually snap the end of the events"

What exactly do you mean? Snap how and to what? It must be the fog here in the Bay area.

It must be the fog here in the Bay area. Gee, it's clear and sunny down here in Carmel.

I just re-read what I wrote, and it isn't very clear. What I was trying to say is that in Vegas, you usually set your project properties before you begin. If you set them to "NTSC DV (720x480, 29.970 fps)," and then drop a media file onto the timeline, the location of the end of that single event will be determined (I think this is correct) by it's framerate. If that framerate does not exactly match the project framerate, then the end of that event will not actually be on a project frame boundary. Since Vegas permits any frame rate and also any audio sample rate, it is perfectly OK -- and in fact is pretty much required -- to have events that don't line up on project frame boundaries.

I just tried to "prove" this by dropping a 30 fps progressive WMV file onto a project having the default properties of the template I mentioned above. Sure enough, if I press and hold the ALT key (to force the arrow keys to move exactly one frame at a time) and walk one frame at a time at the end of this clip, the end of the clip definitely does not coincide with the project frame boundaries. This was true even though I have "Quantize to Frames" enabled. The point is, this setting does not affect the end of the event when it is dragged to the timeline.

However, if I then move the mouse over the end of this event (cursor changes to right/left arrow) and drag the event to the left, it now "snaps" to the project frame boundary and is now aligned.

This is what I was attempting to say in my previous post.

Now, since I had gone this far, I decided to see if I could duplicate your problem. I once again did exactly as I just described. However, after putting the media on the timeline, and before I did anything to the end of that event, I added a fade. I then dragged that same media to the timeline again, and placed it several seconds after the first event, so that the two were not touching. I then added a fade to the beginning of the second event. I then moved it to the left until it touched the first event, and voilà, the fades disappeared from both events!

So, I was able to duplicate exactly the problem that you reported.

I then un-did that operation, and then dragged the end of the first event to the left, as I described above, so that the end now coincided with a frame boundary. I then butted the two together, and sure enough, the fades stayed intact.

Q.E.D.: Events not ending on frame boundaries will lose their fades when butted together. To avoid this, make sure the end of all your events are on frame boundaries. To make this happen in a project you've already created, first run the script I referenced in my last post (which I just tested, and it does indeed get rid of the problem).

Great explanation
I totally understood that. The fog is clearing - at least temporarily.
Its funny that I never noticed this until I started working with HD files and I did a lot of SD work. Must have always used compliant video. How boring.

John,
That's a very useful discovery... thanks for taking the time. That'll go on my short list of instructions I reference when editing. I don't think I've run into this problem when using Cineform intermediates, though.

An easy way to find unquantized frame is to go in Internal preferences and set the options “Show Unquantized Event Start / End” to TRUE.
After that, all unquantized event edge are red.

Gilles

An easy way to find unquantized frame is to go in Internal preferences and set the options “Show Unquantized Event Start / End” to TRUE.

Wow, is that ever a great hint. Thanks!

[Edit] I just tried this out and it works great. What's more, in the process of trying it out on dozens of very different clips on my computer I found out that all my WMV files, even those that were encoded from Vegas at 29.97, all show up with the right-side in pink. Thus, some of the fault may lie with the Vegas encoders not doing the right thing with certain formats. To be fair, these were progressive encodes and I was dropping them on a standard NTSC DV project, which is interlaced. Just to be sure, I popped a standard NTSC DV clip onto a fresh NTSC DV project, and then encoded a few seconds using the WMV "Default" template, which encodes to 29.97. Sure enough, when this clip was placed on the timeline in a new NTSC 29.97 project, the tail of the clip was shown in pink.

Thus, the Vegas encoders are sometimes producing clips that won't go back onto the timeline and conform to the frame boundaries.

An easy way to find unquantized frame is to go in Internal preferences and set the options “Show Unquantized Event Start / End” to TRUE.

I can't seem to find this option in Vegas 8 Pro. What am I missing besides eyes and a brain?

What am I missing besides eyes and a brain?

The secret decoder ring telling you how to do it :-)
While holding down the Shift key, go Options - Prefs.
You'll see the Internal tab at the top right.
Tip #2: type unquantized in the "Show only prefs containing:" box.
That way, only these two will show up.

Mike

Them secret decoder thingies sure is handy! Thanks Mike!

Don't tell Grazie though or he'll want to add it to his "neato LCD screenie" collection :-)

Mike

Wow - that red edges for unquantized frames is a revelation - even found it on some Generated Media. That'll be on by default from now on.

- I wonder what else I don't know?!!

[i]"The body of the unknown approaches infinite."[/]

I read that somewhere, probably in a Douglas Hofstadter book.

Cool. So that's two things I like to change in the secret preferences menu--reduce the "stickiness" of adjacent clips, and mark unquantized ends in red...

What is the parameter for "stickiness" called? Thanks.

In the Internal menu, use "snap width" as a search term at the bottom. Default is 7 pixels, I much prefer 3.

The "Quantize to Frame" script referenced above doesn't seem to work on my V7d system. I get the error message than an exception has occurred.

The "Quantize to Frame" script referenced above doesn't seem to work on my V7d system. I get the error message than an exception has occurred.

I didn't write this particular script -- didn't have anything to do with it -- but here's a fixed version:

Quantize to Frames (works with 7.0d)

Link good for seven days.