>>I'm glad someone mentioned Open Water!

One of the few movies people mentioned the appalling image quality, I'd add my Wolf Creek to that list. Both good stories ruined.<<<

Well essentially - Bullsh*t. Who says?... You? The guy who is over "story" in regards to the filming?
You've got to be kidding me. Ruined?...by image/filming?
I'd reverse that in a heartbeat with these two examples. The common/overplayed story of Wolf Creek is what ruined that movie - not the filming.
Open Water is a great example, the filming style/look played an important role in MANY an opinion.
I'm sorry, but it looks like you're continueing on now to save face. But the thing is...as you go on, you're reinforcing my point. If so, I'd use different examples AT LEAST.

In regards to the bigger releases...
Why to you think the best producers and directors carefully choose their cinematographers? They tend to use the ones who first know how to take in and care for the STORY, so that they may better add in their thoughts/ideas on enhancing THE STORY. They know what to use, where...and how. These are the guys who make a name for themselves. This isn't a book we're reading, where each has their own images of what they read.

Sounds like you're covering your as* at this point - for an absolutely ridiculous comment (and seeing this reply - I doubt you really even meant to spout it - but now you're trying to explain it. Just admit, this is an art we're talking about - the art of telling the story).

>>>But moving beyond that is where we should be at.<<<

Wrong IMO Again, I'd reverse that. These are elements one shouldn't forget.
It's easier to talk tech, I understand...you just google up some info and throw it out here.
But filmaking is art, you're not going to change that. No matter what tech rolls thru town.

>>>See it's all a bit like a dance, everything has to come together to tell the story.<<<

Huh? Now you're back on the RIGHT TRACK (??), weird. And guess what that dance is? Ya know, next time simple "I'm wrong, I was in a pissy mood" would be easier. Not "I'm over [fill in the blank]".
That's not what you want to tell budding new filmakers.

>>>So to go back to the very original question of 'what camera do I need?', it really depends on two things and oddly enough it starts with what your story is, if it's an epic or a narrative drama the choices are different.<<<

And it goes round in circles....
Yes, which is why I and others mentioned in an earlier reply he may have to "tell us about his film" in order to help decide.
Just do yourself a favor Bob, don't ACT so flippant in reply just to do so. Stressing this tech sh*t over the art and basics of great filming and PROPER telling OF THE STORY is quite foolish and poor guidance to many new filmakers.
I can tell you prob never meant to utter the words "I'm over it" (much less being "over" anything important to a film's outcome).
It leads nowhere, fast.

I'm sure you'll come back with some cover your ass, flaming reply...so just save it. I'm thru with mindsets like this. There are plenty of others more capable and hold a better "tude. i suggest you get with the program and join 'em (cause you're not gonna beat 'em with THAT soapbox).

Option 2 Brian - everytime.

>>>And, of course, the HDV camera will require thousands of more dollars for an upgraded computer, HD monitor, etc.<<<

seriously, something that get's overlooked by some (until after they purchase the latest cam).

Well, thanks for the kind words, all...
and you are right in that I was paid upwards of $10k a day to shoot and direct, because if you're going to spend $200k for two or three days of shooting, you'd like to think it's GOING TO WORK :>))
(that was my job)

and...
In fact I DO currently have a video playing the festival circuit that was shot only with my PD170, as well as with a PD150, a GLII, and a Sony Digi8 (which in fact yielded some of the prettiest footage in the video).

I still haven't bought an HDV camera for myself because it's still difficult if not impossible to RELEASE in HiDef. BluRay may be "coming", but it ain't here yet. My guess is that by the time HiDef is in widespread use, the specs and definitely the equipment will have evolved. I'll buy at that time.

Re: Festivals - I may be wrong, but MOST of the festivals I've seen are screening SD off of DVD's. The "big" guys are screening HD, as well, and in a side by side, HD would blow the SD off the screen. But I'd save the dinero for a year, myself (in fact, I did).

Yes, today, I'd go for the ancillary equipment rather than the HDV setup. You are right - the sound, lighting and grip equipment will probably last you for your entire career - cameras currently are "good" for three years (although we are STILL using my Sony VX1000 in professional situations- what a work horse!!)

And last, I must request a kinder approach to FARSS. I have never had the pleasure of meeting him, but his knowledge, experience and level headed approach have been of great service to me personally through the years. He, unlike some (no one explicitly pointed at here - PLEASE!!) - he does not generally speak from opinion, but from a firm foundation of experience.

Remember, there are a grillion ways to approach the movie process. C'mon guys, NONE of this is "set in stone"! The whole freakin' science of "movie pitchurs" is less than 100 years old. And "do it yourself" video isn't even three decades old. So if he feels that technique supercedes story - we can expect magnificently beautiful movies from him (see David Lean or Ang Lee). And if he thinks story is the compelling issue, we can expect symbolism, action, sex, grit, politics - well, that's why different directors do different things.That's also why there's NO director that EVERYONE loves (except in my family, and we know who wins that one!)

I worked both as a Director and a DP for most of my life. Some of the director's I shot for knew EVERYTHING on the set - every light, every lens, every prop - even wardrobe. Some others - you'd just wonder how a schmuck like him ever got the job. AND YOU'D (meaning young feisty ME) would be dead WRONG! Because the end product would be great!

Anyway...one of the most wonderful things about this forum is the vast experience base you can draw on. Civility is one of the ways you keep an information source coming back. I personally don't want to lose Farss, or Jaydeee, or anyone else, for that matter - many thanks in this regard.

best,
v

>>And last, I must request a kinder approach to FARSS.<<

Sure. But remember it works both ways. "Ignore the dross about story" (???)...just doesn't sit well when new filmaking blood may be reading some of these.
I don't know Fars, I'm sure he's fine and could prob care less about my reply.
I'm replying for the orig poster and question raised, even with my reply to fars's latest.

Besides, after reading his latest replies it looked to me like he prob didn't REALLY mean it in anyway when saying "I'm over it". His replies began to tell an opposite story as it went on. It looked to me like he cared very much on how the story is told in later replies.
Eh, I'd chalk it up to a comment made from a pissy mood (EVERYONE does it).
I think it's fair to send a reminder regarding this topic though -
Many will strongly disagree with comments like that.

To quote from my original post:

==============================================
Ignore all the dross about story. Either your story's good or it suck, doesn't matter what you shoot it on. But a good story can be ruined by a poor image and / or poor sound. Sure if you've got a killer plot and killer talent anything will do but if YOU think your stories worth the telling why not make it look as good as possible. Conversely if you think your stories sucks don't bother shooting it, with an attiitude like that it's doomed before the first cry of "action".
==============================================

Hardly sounds like I was playing down the importance of the story.

If anyone wants to take it that way then certainly, you have my apologies, that was anything but my intention.

And just for the record I have spent many an unpaid hour helping aspiring filmmakers bring their story to fruitition. In my paid job I spend more time than pleases my boss giving free advice to those starting out, because I am passionate about this business. If they're passionate about their story then I believe it should be told as well as it can be.

I don't have any artistic skills to bring to this game so I bring my lowly skills as an engineer, that's why my focus is on image and sound quality.

Bob.

eh, I think in this case parts of your early replies were tainted/off the cuff...nearing not even meant (at least I'd like to think so).

Good to hear about your time donations. I believe nearly everyone in the a/v biz has dedicated donation hours/days/years to the cause. Let's face it, ya gotta get out there and jump in the coffee to let your cream rise to the top.
It can be a painful ride.

>>>that's why my focus is on image and sound quality.<<<

I believe that would be "audio sweetening" Bob (I'm joking - taken from another thread. It is sooooo very much NOT "sweetening").

peace

"It can be a painful ride."

Absolutely!

The greatest pain for me is when they come to me after they've shot the thing. Ten minutes of advice up front would have saved hours / days down the track.

I've got one client who just keeps doing it, this is a commercial operation. Good images, good ideas and not a clue about audio. I keep offering them a few hours of my time for free to tutor them on how to get good audio but they just keep working the same old way and sending me paid work to fix it, wierd.


But all that aside, hey it's good to have a heated debate over things that should matter to all of us instead of politics and religion.

Bob.

I take offense to the DVXUser site being extremists over anything Panasonic. I frequent the site a lot, much like I do here. That site has great information on what's going on with 35mm adapters, a great DIY section and other things. It even has a Vegas forum as well.

What you will learn at the DVX user site is whether or not you'll be happy with a Panasonic product based on user feedback. Panasonic listens to feedback, hence an ever evolving great product. Try that with your other camera manufacturers.