Here's a request for as many of you as would be willing to send us (Sony dev team) some finished real-world sample projects with media (!), especially stuff that's pro-grade or otherwise buffed out. Its really important for us to be able to look at expert user's projects, not just for testing purposes but also to see how we might help solve problems, be more efficient, performance tune etc.

I promise we'll keep your projects secure, we have every plug-in under the sun, a huge variety of hardware...and we just might be able to toss a few goodies your way in exchange (hint).

Email me at Dr.Dropout{AT}sonypictures.com - we'll shoot you our ftp upload site or give you the snail-mail address.

Now that's AWESOME!... but what about synced MIDI to other apps.? Too much? OK, sorry. You guys rock.

MJ

I think you don't really follow what my argument is, or why I even said what I said in this last post above. It started with a question of Vegas being a budget solution or not, compared to bigger more hardware based systems, which led to Sari pointing out that they indeed had chosen Vegas for their pro studio, which led me to point out that they are an exception. Is that what you meant by old and tired argument?
And my initial question was: can Sony and Vegas keep up the competition?
That Vegas can't compete with Pro-Tools, and likewise, for various reasons which you pointed out one, is quite clear. But now softwares like Sonar4 will probably steal the market from Vegas to.
When Vegas Pro hit the market, it was a fresh thing. I believe that if Sonic Foundry's next step would have been, either by themselves, or with close collaboration with a hardware manufacturer, setting up a combination of software/hardware made for eachother, we would have seen a totally different situation. It would have been a true pro Digital Audio Workstation, not just software. It would of course cost a lot more, so prosumers like most that use Vegas today wouldn't get into it, but no latency problems (my god! Latency! Haven't had to worry about latency the last ten years working with Soundscape), no input monitoring problems that some talk about, and other stuff that seems to evolve depending on which hardware different people have.
Instead they chose to implement video into it. And of course, when implementing another function, it became more versatile a product, but also less powerfull on the audio side? Why?
Cause developement costs money, and if you have to develope two different tools at the same time, you have to chose which part you put up first.
Sonic foundry did not chose pro audio market.
And that is why we today have a tool that could have been fantastic, but ends up just being good.
And that is a significant fact to explain why Vegas isn't a bigger product on the pro audio recording market than it is today.
Blaming only Digidesign and history is just stupid. You make your own history too.

Could be interresting to see if SONY that has the hardware part too will take a step in the pro audio direction, or if Vegas will become a powerfull home/prosumer tool for editing video and audio. Maybe both?
This is a first step: http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.com/products/showproduct.asp?PID=932
Notice how it's all mentioned as "video editing tool", not audio...

I think Sony sees more profit in a prosumer tool than a "professional tool". It is more about volume sales, than (N) sales per month.

>>I think Sony sees more profit in a prosumer tool than a "professional tool".<<

Perhaps. But make no mistake, profits are THE overriding factor with any publically held company. If a lesser quality product will provide the stockholders with a greater profit margin than a higher end product, then that is the direction the company (Sony or whoever) will take. Period. Occasionally, we will find a high quality product that also makes money for the stockholders but this is rare (in fact I can't think of an example at the moment). As a rule, a company's mass consumer products have to subsidize the higher end stuff to keep it available. At some point, in most cases a decision is made that this no longer makes good business sense and the higher end product is dropped and/or the quality declines. We see this all the time when a smaller company has been aquired by a larger one. Whether this will be the case for users of the original SoFo products is yet to be seen.

drbam

sony makes xpri, a NLE video solution that is extreemly powerful. it is definately a professional video solution.

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/xpriApp/index.jsp

I think the point of it is that it a "Multimedia" editing software.

I'd like to see full plug-in latency compensation throughout the entire audio path. Also perhaps event/object based plugins, like in CD Architect and Samplitude - that might kick things up a bit!

That's really all I can think of other then of course VST and MIDI support... but really once you get used it, bouncing between Vegas and another MIDI sequencer is no hassle at all. I'm a Logic fan myself and was actually still using it for effect-based track until this newer Vegas which is just fine for that now (except the latency thing, which is ussually an easy workaround)

I use both Vegas and Cubase. You can have both for much less than cost of protools. I like Vegas for projects that require lots of track editing. I use Cubase for projects with midi tracks.

If that is the case, why is Sony spending money to present Vegas as a professional tool. Sony just recently addressed the consumer market with "Audio Studio" and "Movie Studio". I expect that Vegas will continue to compete in the prosumer market.

Well, to me, it is and always was a professional multimedia tools. The fact that it is the best editing tool for many of us may not have been because they were trying to make it "the best audio program" but rather, perhaps, they just figured out what the *easiest* way to do things are and implemented stuff with that attitude in mind. Cubase, Logic, etc... are more along the lines of "What the most powerful and flexable solution" and it does show, just look at all the features! Some people may prefer to work that way, or like many of us, combine use of programs. I'm just glad Vegas hasn't altered the basic ways of their program, because it a nice alternative to most of our audio needs.

Vegas is great for audio editing. Debate about pro facilities choosing ProTools over Vegas is not a debate at all. ProTools isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread. Preferably I would like to keep my DAW CPU-based rather than constantly having to dump tens of thousands into upgrading PCI hardware, but logic doesn't sell nearly as much as hype.

My main complaint with Vegas is that there isn't an Apple version available. Sony would expand into a HUGE marketplace if they would put out an Apple version of Vegas.

MrPhil wrote:
" I believe that if Sonic Foundry's next step would have been, either by themselves, or with close collaboration with a hardware manufacturer, setting up a combination of software/hardware made for eachother, we would have seen a totally different situation"

You should check out the Digi user forum. If there is one common complaint about PT, among TDM users, its being married to Digi's interfaces. They do a lot of bitching about that one. And I've seen a lot of other forums where people would love to have PT (for the name's sake, I guess) but hesitate because of that same issue.

There's just no way to please, is there?

charliedango.
Could one of the reason for Vegas being cheaper then, say Premiere Pro or Avid because they developed for this one platform?
I've been looking around for some EQ plugin, at least to have the option of something else than Sonic Foundry's stock. I came across a plugin from BIAS, called SuperFreq. Looks like a wery user friendly and 10 band paragraphic for $79.00, that's just over freeware. But OS X only.

"Pro Tools LE is'nt Pro Tools at all"
Strange comment. Depends on what you use it for .
If you absolutely have to have Beat detective, Amp Farm and huge track count, then yes.
If you need a portable solution for location work, with good editing capabilitis, better conversion than 888/882.
Then Mix/Mix+ is not PT at all.

There is hardware that works excelently, in no latency auto input mode, even with aux sends, but only in Nuendo and Samplitude, not vegas

RME's totalmix, and in general ASIO DM is awesome. People speak about how they dont like being locked into hardware, but the nuendo and sam guys dont seem to mind...I am hoping SF can get DM working and if not, then their own proprietary scheme

Monitoring has been a joke for far too long now. V5 is a HUGE step in the right direction, but we got a ways to go

You should check out the Digi user forum. If there is one common complaint about PT, among TDM users, its being married to Digi's interfaces. They do a lot of bitching about that one. And I've seen a lot of other forums where people would love to have PT (for the name's sake, I guess) but hesitate because of that same issue.

Check out the Soundscape users forum.
www.sydec.com
No bitching there about being married to the SS32 or R.Ed hardware. PT isn't the only system outhere that is hardware based you know. And not the best one IMO.
And teaming up with a hardwáre producer doesn't necesserally mean that you are locked to one interface only, just that there is one system that is guaranteed to work with no latency and better monitoring while recording.
Someone mentioned RME, and that would be a very good choice I think.
On the other hand, SONY themselves has the know how, just not the will.
The Vegas program started out great but has stagnated somewhat compared to other systems. THAT is my point here.

I thought all of my Sony friends would be happy to hear that Track envelopes in Sonar 4 are screwed.

When you freeze a track (that's like rendering) the track envelope changes occur in a different place from where they are written:

http://www.cakewalk.com/forum/tm.asp?m=242517

There are install issues, also:

http://www.cakewalk.com/forum/tm.asp?m=248200

There's a ton more issues, but like I said .... Don't sweat it ...S4 is no competition for V5 and I suspect V6 will completely blow away the competition.

MrPhil wrote:
"No bitching there about being married to the SS32 or R.Ed hardware. PT isn't the only system outhere that is hardware based you know. And not the best one IMO."

Well good for them. I´m just afraid that if SONY would team up with a hardware company, corners will be cut. Of course ad's and reviewers will say that it's the best combination under the sun.
As mentioned above, every moove is eventually to please the shareholders.

That's all.

I would do it more the cubendo or samplitude way

you can use any hardware you want. If the hardware happens to come with complete ASIO DM features, you use them. Steinberg and Samplitude have worked directly with RME to make sure that their apps worked with ASIO DM, and options can be set in those apps whether to use it or not.

Even with the RME cards, you can turn off the ASIO DM and use it the way it works in Vegas

but

Even in software mode, Nuendo and Samplitude have ( I hear ) worked with RME to make sure they get a VERY efficient I/O. In nuendo or samplitude, I can easily record 18 tracks PLUS input monitoring PLUS two separate headphone mixes PLUS a few FX

In vegas I cant even always trust ONE track in input monitoring, with very many tracks playing back

this isnt a dead end, it can sure be looked into

maybe something better than ASIO DM will come out and Sony wont be so against using it

So... the thing to be happy for when using Vegas, is that other programs has bugs?
Well, well...

And to please the shareholders, you must first please the customers.

Hear hear!
Good points!

A step in this direction would be a step towards being more pro.
Definitely needed if you are a serious studio IMO.

So... the thing to be happy for when using Vegas, is that other programs has bugs?

That's not the point I was trying to make regarding Sonar 4:

You can not "MIX" with the program .... That is not a "BUG" ...That is a MAJOR fundamental problem...