Can't get Cineform clips to work in 11

hazydave wrote on 10/18/2011, 3:16 AM

Hey, if it didn't crash, that's progress.

Which version of Cineform are you using? Assuming you didn't grab the NeoScene 5.x upgrade, that's the missing piece.

When Sony released Vegas 10, they added support, apparently, for some private API found in Cineform, something over and above Video for Windows or other normal video CODECs. They clearly did not need this in Vegas 9, but hey, maybe it does something cool (still waiting to find out what).

Ok, so Vegas 10 had this API, I'm sure Vegas 11 does too. The problem is, Vegas 10 at least grabbed the Cineform CODEC and apparently just started using this new interface, without checking versions or anything. So if you had an older version of Cineform, Vegas 10 would literally explode.

So I paid another $100 for the upgrade. That got my Cineform files into Vegas. Still couldn't render -- Vegas crashed when tying to render Cineform, every time.. this was finally fixed in 10d or 10e. It still occasionally renders Cineform wrong... weird interlacing effects, other crazy stuff. Vegas 9 always worked, old version, new version, it didn't care. No idea what all this trouble is buying anyone.

That's likely what you're seeing. I got used to using high bitrate MXF MPEG-2 files for intermediate video files, in the year+ I had to wait to see Cineform working again in any usable way.

This was totally unacceptable in a pro-level product. While I'm happy to have any new feature Sony wants to put in, it has to work. And they should have included an "off" switch -- a way to use Cineform as a plain old everyday VfW CODEC, as in Vegas 9. I mean, they had that same level of control with DV back in the DV days -- you could turn Sony's DV CODEC off and use Microsoft's, if you wanted to. They should have offered the same option for Cineform in Vegas.

Paul_Holmes wrote on 10/18/2011, 7:22 AM

Thanks for the info -- not very happy about that. Have Cineform version 1, don't really want to have to spend $250 just to upgrade to Vegas 11 and still be able to use Cineform files.

I'll look into this more, maybe contact Cineform, see what they have to say.

Paul

Timpe wrote on 10/18/2011, 9:56 AM

Any new information on this?

I did fast test yesterday and I had many odd preview bugs with Cineform clips. It was happening on all preview quality levels. Tomorrow I have more time on this and will report my findings to Cineform.

MRe wrote on 10/18/2011, 1:49 PM

I upgraded from NeoHDV to NeoScene because of Vegas Pro 10. Now it looks like that the NeoScene does not work with VP11... I get vertical bars around the preview and the image is squeezed (1440x1080 HDV-material which has been converted to CF avi). It looks like Vegas treats the pixels as square, not 1.333 as it should. With VP10 the same media works ok.

Looks like it is not worth to upgrade to VP11 if I cannot get the Cineform work...

I posted this same to Cineform because I'm not sure whose "fault" this is.

musicvid10 wrote on 10/18/2011, 2:49 PM

Cineform has been very responsive in the past about releasing any essential patches or updates following a new release of Vegas Pro.

Be patient for a few days, give them a chance to test it, and see what they come up with. I'm sure someone will post on this forum.

Marc S wrote on 10/18/2011, 3:04 PM

Here we go again...

Unfortunately Sony does not seems to have much of a relationship with Cineform and they break Cineform support in every new version of Vegas. It's still not working right in Vegas 10 but it's useable. I have not tried Vegas 11 but the initial results do not sound good. Cineform is quick to respond but unfortunately the response can be "This is on Sony's end" and that can take years to fix.

David Newman wrote on 10/18/2011, 6:35 PM

We haven't experienced issues with Vegas 11, in fact it is working much better than 10 as the FirstLight correction are correctly supported. We've been doing our tests with the x64 version. For those having issues please report to Sony and CineForm support teams.

David Newman
Sr. Dir. Sft. Eng. GoPro
/a.k.a CineForm CTO

John_Cline wrote on 10/18/2011, 6:43 PM

Cineform NEO has been working perfectly for me in Vegas v11.

Marc S wrote on 10/18/2011, 8:29 PM

Good to hear David but do you know if the levels problem been fixed? What I am referring to is how any footage rendered out of Vegas as Cineform cannot be brought into other program such as After Effects without a black level upshift of about 7.5 IRE. This was confirmed by Cineform support but we were told it's on Sony end and that you could not do anything about it.

mark-woollard wrote on 10/18/2011, 8:44 PM

My 1440x1080 CineForm clips created in 10 are squished in 11. 11 reports under the media properties window that the pixels are square, as noted earlier in this thread. I used VAAST 's UltimateS to force a change in the media's PAR. Strangely, it fixed some clips but not all.

MRe wrote on 10/19/2011, 4:03 AM

This is what I got from CF:

>>>>>Quote begins:<<<<<<<<
---
Jake Segraves, Oct-18 11:53 am (PDT):
This is something to take up with Sony. They do their own implementation of the CineForm codec at this point.
Kind Regards,
Jake Segraves
Technical Support Manager
CineForm | GoPro...be a HERO!
________________________________________

Matti Remonen, Oct-18 11:31 am (PDT):
Hi,
I just updated to new NeoScene because of moving to Vegas Pro 10 (old NeoHDV was not anymore supported on that platform). Anyway, now it seems that the new Vegas Pro 11 won't work correctly with NeoScene (5.5.4): Vegas does not identify the converted (m2t->avi) files correctly. And even if the media is set to 1440x1080 50i maually, the preview is not shown correctly: the image has black vertical bars on left and right. This might be Vegas' issue but I'm now approaching you.
Vegas Pro 10 works a-ok with the same media and settings.
Any thoughts on this?
------------------
>>>>Quote ends.<<<<<<

I haven't reinstalled NeoScene after installing VP11. Previously this was a standard procedure. I will try this when I have more time but meanwhile: any other directions?

I haven't raised ticket with Sony just yet....

Timpe wrote on 10/19/2011, 4:34 AM

I did a ticket with CF and got same reply as Matti. I did a ticket with Sony after that reply.

My problem:
At first try I got many strange problems on preview with CF clips only project. First everything seemed ok but after a while when changing preview quality settings problems started. Some skewing and missing frames.

My test project originated from version 10e but I tried it with new V11 project also, same problems. I got also one Vegas crash during testing (reported).

I did a re-install with latest CF Neo and now I am having only occasionally black frames but still some problems exist.

Other than CF material projects are working fine.

Paul_Holmes wrote on 10/19/2011, 10:53 AM

Well, I guess for now I'll have to go with hazydave's way of dealing with it -- Sony MXF files.

Don't understand the technical, "under-the-hood" stuff and don't really want to. It seems if a codec like mxf can work equally well with 9 or 11 the same should apply to Cineform (having paid for it -- vs 1).

Cineform's been great up to this time and willing to go back to it -- even upgrade to Neo (for First Light) but until I'm certain upgrading will not be a waste of money I'd better hold off.

Meanwhile, really like Vegas 11. In my i5 dual-core laptop I'm getting full-frame, smooth playback of AVCHD and MOV files wihout having to render to another codec. Maybe that would have been true in vs 10 also, but for now I love the speed-bump form 9 to 11.

Paul

teaktart wrote on 10/19/2011, 2:07 PM

With NEO SCENE upgrade are you able to open clips that were made with NEO HDV in earlier versions of Vegas - like v8 ?

In other words can I open a V8 project with older CF clips in V11 if I upgrade to NEO SCENE ?

I got stuck with V10 not opening my V8 clips without an upgrade to NEO SCENE and I never did that due to all the complaints on V10.
I've continued to work with my V8 and XP setup.

But it is getting time for a major overhaul and upgrade. Just don't want to spend money and get stuck ...unable to use older clips in a newer version of Vegas.

Can someone verify this for me?

Thanks much,
eileen

MRe wrote on 10/20/2011, 1:14 AM

teaktart: to my understanding if you upgrade from NeoHDV to NeoScene, you are able to use your old clips w/o re-rendering those. That's what I did, anyway.

But be warned: currently there are some issues with VP11 and Cineform. I opened a ticket yesterday with Sony concerning my problems (described in this thread). I'm not waiting to hear about them soon because normally the support has been overwhelmed with new incidents immediately after the launch of new product.

Your best bet is to d/l trial versions of both products and make your own experimenting.

diverG wrote on 10/20/2011, 8:50 AM

Just saved a working 'cineform' project in VP10 to a new name and opened it in VP11. VP11 opens the the project but all clips appear as 4:3. Looks like an update of Neoscene is required.

Use Pan & Crop tool 'Source' Maintain aspect : change to No. This get you back to 16:9 format. Copy and paste attributes to other clips provides a global correction. only Ok if using 'cineform.avi' in a new project.

Looks like an updated 'Debugmode' is required to enable frameserving.

Early days yet and a few teething troubles can be expected with third party tools.

MRe wrote on 10/20/2011, 11:52 AM

Thanks diverG, it did the trick!

Anyway, if you check my first post post in this thread, you'll see that Cineform puts the blame on Sony. So its up to Sony fix this...

teaktart wrote on 10/20/2011, 1:09 PM

Thanks MRe!
You answered a question thats been on my mind for quite a while. For some reason my NEO HDV does weird stuff on capturing and sends my clips to the wrong drive (C:) even though I've specified a drive (G:). Its inconsistant behavior but drives me crazy when it does that...like yesterday.

So I've held back on any upgrades with Ciineform and V10 due to all the problems folks were having with that combo. Guess I'll continue to wait~
Hope there's a fix soon!

eileen

diverG wrote on 10/20/2011, 1:22 PM

Chances are it is a Sony problem. The change from 'yes' to 'no' is merely the setting of a flag. There must be a great many 'flags' within Vegas, it's very easy to miss one.

So far VP11 seems to be going well.

chap wrote on 10/27/2011, 9:51 AM

I tried this and still no luck, my Cineform and Vegas 11 is so terrible I will have to go back to 10 until I can finish my workload.

MRe wrote on 11/1/2011, 1:52 PM

The current updates did not change the situation, at least not according to my testing.

This is probably not very high on Sony's list on fixes to be made but nevertheless I will not upgrade if this is not fixed. And definitely I will not upgrade after the offer expires at the end of this month.

Shame.

Timpe wrote on 11/1/2011, 3:06 PM

I did a quick test also with new build. No luck, still having occasionally black frames. VP10e running fine and I will not upgrade to VP11 before this issue will be solved.

MRe wrote on 11/2/2011, 4:14 AM

I think that most of the work going to the new build has been already completed or at least planned and agreed before VP11 went "Gold". Therefore only the next build can possibly include fixes to the problems Sony has not been aware of (like with Cineform, which is 3'rd party product and probably not used by Sony testers or beta-testers).

The problem here is that the upgrade offer expires after four weeks and there is no way I'm going to make the upgrade before I'm sure that the product I'm buying is ok. And definitely I will not upgrade with retail price just because Sony cannot produce fully functional software in time. So it looks like I'm going to skip VP 11. No big deal.

Serena wrote on 11/2/2011, 4:43 AM

A quick test of VP11 (32) with Neo clips is fine. However not an arduous test.