Can't Open Old Cineform CFHD files in Vegas Pro 21

Elizabeth Lowrey wrote on 9/9/2024, 4:03 PM

I am working with an old SD Vegas project from 2009 originally rendered out for DVD spec that I would now like to re-master 1080p for upload and sharing. The interview video clips were shot at 1080p on a Canon 5D Mark II with secondary audio (which is what the project actually uses) recorded at 48 KHz to a dedicated audio recorder.

For those unfamiliar, a "quirk" in the 5D meant that it actually recorded at--no kidding--30 fps instead of 29.97, so integrating native 5D clips (mp4 in .mov container) in a "normal" timeline was a nightmare. Fortunately, Cineform NeoScene saved the day, and I used it back in 2009 to transcode the .mov files to Cineform (CFHD) avi, which, as David Newman explains here (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-eos-full-frame-hd/146329-30-0-vs-29-97-a.html) involved reflagging the video frames (not interpolating in anyway, just slowing playback rate ever so slightly to conform to 29.97) and then resampling the audio to get it to stay perfectly in sync with the video.

The problem now is that the Cineform avi transcoded files will not open in Vegas 21, and I'm obviously on a different computer now than when I did the project back in 2009. Because GoPro long ago bought out Cineform, there's no support available there. I tried installing the Go Pro player, and that was a "no go" (or "no go pro," pun intended). I even tried installing the original NeoScene, which I kept. That didn't work either, not least because it was asking for activation codes (which I saved but which no longer work to activate the program.)

The oddity is that VLC will play the CFHD avi clips just fine. But Vegas 21 won't touch them.

I saved the original 30 fps mp4/mov files from the Canon, and, with a LOT of effort, could probably redo the project using them. But that's a heck of a lot of work when the outboard audio is already synced to the Cineform avi's. So what I most need is a way to get those CFHD avi files to be recognized/read in Vegas Pro 21.

Here is Mediainfo on an original camera file:

General
Complete name                            : Interview Footage\Day 2\MVI_2595.MOV
Format                                   : MPEG-4
Format profile                           : QuickTime
Codec ID                                 : qt   2007.09 (qt /CAEP)
File size                                : 3.99 GiB
Duration                                 : 13 min 57 s
Overall bit rate                         : 40.9 Mb/s
Frame rate                               : 30.000 FPS
Encoded date                             : 2009-12-04 04:34:24 UTC
Tagged date                              : 2013-08-30 08:13:57 UTC

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : Constrained Baseline@L5
Format settings                          : 1 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC                   : No
Format settings, Reference frames        : 1 frame
Format settings, GOP                     : M=1, N=15
Codec ID                                 : avc1
Codec ID/Info                            : Advanced Video Coding
Duration                                 : 13 min 57 s
Bit rate                                 : 39.5 Mb/s
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Original height                          : 1 088 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 30.000 FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.635
Stream size                              : 3.85 GiB (97%)
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : 2009-12-04 04:34:24 UTC
Tagged date                              : 2009-12-04 04:34:24 UTC
Color range                              : Full
Color primaries                          : BT.709
Transfer characteristics                 : BT.709
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.601
Gamma                                    : 2.200
Codec configuration box                  : avcC

Audio
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : PCM
Format settings                          : Little / Signed
Codec ID                                 : sowt
Duration                                 : 13 min 57 s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 1 411.2 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Channel layout                           : L R
Sampling rate                            : 44.1 kHz
Bit depth                                : 16 bits
Stream size                              : 141 MiB (3%)
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : 2009-12-04 04:34:24 UTC
Tagged date                              : 2009-12-04 04:34:24 UTC

And here is Mediainfo for the Cineform transcode:

General
Complete name                            : Interview Footage\Day 2\MVI_2595-001.avi
Format                                   : AVI
Format/Info                              : Audio Video Interleave
Format profile                           : OpenDML
Format settings                          : BitmapInfoHeader
File size                                : 6.10 GiB
Duration                                 : 13 min 57 s
Overall bit rate                         : 62.6 Mb/s
Frame rate                               : 29.970 FPS

Video
ID                                       : 0
Format                                   : CineForm
Codec ID                                 : CFHD
Codec ID/Info                            : CineForm 10-bit Visually Perfect HD (Wavelet)
Duration                                 : 13 min 57 s
Bit rate                                 : 61.0 Mb/s
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate                               : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.981
Stream size                              : 5.95 GiB (97%)

Audio
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : PCM
Format settings                          : Little / Signed
Codec ID                                 : 1
Duration                                 : 13 min 57 s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 1 411.2 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Sampling rate                            : 44.1 kHz
Bit depth                                : 16 bits
Stream size                              : 141 MiB (2%)
Alignment                                : Aligned on interleaves
Interleave, duration                     : 33 ms (1.00 video frame)
Interleave, preload duration             : 9938 ms

Comments

diverG wrote on 9/9/2024, 4:33 PM

Use "shutter encoder" to convert your 30fps to 29.97. Program is friendly interface to ffmeg and is free. Should get you going until others chip in. Good luck

Kinvermark wrote on 9/9/2024, 5:16 PM

Try this link to movie studio Zen forum where he appears to have kept a copy of the very last Gopro Cineform installer:

https://www.moviestudiozen.com/free-tutorials/vegas-pro/render-cineform-video-from-vegas-pro-movie-studio#a6

Vdanny wrote on 9/9/2024, 10:16 PM

Vdanny wrote on 9/9/2024, 6:39 PM

Hi @Elizabeth Lowrey

When you say you tried to install the GoPro player were you meaning GoPro Studio? This can install the Cineform codecs even though it is somewhat difficult to find but fortunately @Kinvermark has provided a link. I am a little concerned that you couldn't activate NeoScene as it was kind of expensive. I still use this with my GH1 as it is the only program that could properly do pulldown on 60i video in a 24P wrapper. I am so getting tired of buying programs only to be unable to activate them if I get a new computer because the activation server gets dismantled.

Elizabeth Lowrey wrote on 9/10/2024, 12:08 AM

Thanks to you all for the replies!

I was prepared to do the Shutter Encoder thing if necessary, since I already have that. But I used Kinvermark's link to download and install an older version of GoProStudio, and (unlike with the current GoPro player with "Hypersmooth pro" on the website), this one actually worked to install the Cineform codec. Voila, the old avi files are now opening in the project.

Thanks for the tremendous help!

Wolfgang S. wrote on 9/10/2024, 1:45 AM

The interesting question is a different one. Regardless, if the old version of GoPro Studio works or not - and it seems to work to decode the codec: the Cineform codec was integrated in earlier versions of Vegas in a generic way, to allow a true decoding with 10bit also. I wonder if this 10bit decoding still works, since the actual builds of Vegas seems not to support Cineform in a native any more. So, since that it not clear I would tend to use ProRes today - since here the 10bit decoding works.

Kinvermark wrote on 9/10/2024, 2:06 PM

@Elizabeth Lowrey Glad you got it working!

@Wolfgang S. IIRC Vegas never had "native" Cineform encoders & decoders, but they did make some sort of accomodation for 10 bit AVI for Cineform only. Doubt this code has changed, but who knows.

As you say, ProRes would be a better choice for new projects today. Better support in a .mov container, which properly allows for things like source timecode, etc. It is a "living" codec & container, which cineform and avi are not.

I would love to see them rebuild the proxy system with Prores, make it really quick & convenient to use, and use the proxies when media hover scrubbing & trimmer hover scrubbing. Source timecode is important for linking the proxies to the originals, as well as for unrendered (e.g xml, OTIO?) timeline exports, and Prores would support this.

Problems are easier to see I hindsight, but I humbly suggest it might have been better for Vegas dev's to build a "kick ass" proxy system first, then fight with improving the media engine performance. Sadly, It is taking too long. And with new camera formats coming out all the time, it's not clear the performance gap is actually getting smaller.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 9/10/2024, 3:20 PM

Vegas never had "native" Cineform encoders & decoders, but they did make some sort of accomodation for 10 bit AVI for Cineform only. Doubt this code has changed, but who knows.

Vegas has not been able to decode Cineform in 10bit, using the open cl interface in the beginning. It was in Vegas Pro 13(!), when Cineform became implemented native in Vegas - to allow the 10bit decoding. This was explored in some detail:

https://www.videotreffpunkt.com/videotreffpunkt/index.php?thread/17874-10-bit-uhd-prores-verarbeitung-in-vegas-wissenstand-1-2015/&postID=282778&highlight=Cineform#post282778

However, with all the changes in the new video engine it is not clear to me, where we are now. The old Cineform codec will not have changed at all, but Vegas may have changed. I have not tested that again, as we did that in 2015 - also because the testing environment is not available any more, maybe.

Both Cineform and ProRes were never proxys, but intermediates. So the idea was to use the intermediate files instead of the original footage, but this idea became more and more outdated with the improved performance of our systems.

But there will be some old projects where the footage is available with Cineform intermediates (I have also some), coming for example from old Shogun ProRes files in my cases. What a pitty - today we have native 10bit ProRes support implemented in Vegas in a great way too. But available in Cineform files only today. Not sure if the decoding of Cineform files will happen today in 8bit or 10bit in Vegas, even after the GoPro studio installation.

However, since the original Canon footage seems to be 8bit only in the postings above, maybe this is not an issue really. But maybe the original footage could swaped back simply, and could be used too today.

johnny-s wrote on 9/10/2024, 4:05 PM

Might be best to convert Cineform files to Prores HQ externally and then replace in VP if there is a Cineform reading issue.

The Prores HQ files were mostly slightly higher quality than Cineform so that should be OK.

Kinvermark wrote on 9/10/2024, 4:30 PM

Cineform and ProRes were never proxys, but intermediates

For sure, but I think those terms are more about the purpose (i.e. intended use, or way of working) than the actual file format. What was an "intermediate" ten years ago may be a "proxy" today. E.g. 1080 Prores as a Proxy for 4k 10 bit 422 HEVC out of a modern camera.

IMO, a well engineered "proxy" system should be easily used for either way of working. For example, let's say I want to do editorial in Vegas but "finish" in another program (or have a remote partner do it). I could work with super lightweight Prores LTT files and then send out an OTIO timeline and have the original media swapped back in. Alternatively, Vegas could generate high quality Prores 422 at full raster (i.e. intermediates) which would get sent to the finishing program along with the OTIO file. You want SOURCE TIMECODE for both of these scenarios, which Prores / .mov has support for.

Note: Davinci Resolve on Windows CAN'T make Prores files! (there is a workaround but it is not efficient)

I think this is a big opportunity for Vegas.

Opinions?

Wolfgang S. wrote on 9/10/2024, 4:43 PM

Might be best to convert Cineform files to Prores HQ externally and then replace in VP if there is a Cineform reading issue.

The Prores HQ files were mostly slightly higher quality than Cineform so that should be OK.

The conversion tool has to work in 10bit too. What worked fine 10 years ago was TMPGenc5, since it was fast and maintained the 10bit. So that should work. Not sure if the free shutter encoder works in 10bit too.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 9/10/2024, 4:51 PM

For HEVC 10bit 422 an i-GPU could help in VP22 too - to achieve a good preview performance for a lot of files (if one set the i/o preferences to the i-GPU).

If this is not enough or if there is no i-GPU, ProRes could be fine too. I have done a conversion from Canopus HQ 422 files 8bit to ProRes recently with the free Shutterencoder, also able to generate ProRes under Windows (and maybe an indication that the Shutterencoder runs with 10 bit too).

johnny-s wrote on 9/10/2024, 7:48 PM

@Wolfgang S.

"The conversion tool has to work in 10bit too"

ffmpeg can do that, I earlier tested a fhd "cineform Filmscan 2" to Prores HQ.

Shutterencoder uses ffmpeg so maybe it can also do that.

While there would be a tiny quality loss with any conversion, given the 2 codecs are such high quality starting with I don't think that's a worry.

The benefit is if one had lots of cineform projects there would be no looking back and Prores is so like butter in VP.

RogerS wrote on 9/10/2024, 10:47 PM

In ShutterEncoder's advanced settings you can select colorspace and Rec.709 10 bits is an option for h264. ProRes 422 is also 10-bit.