Can this "non-smoothness" be avoided during rendering?

RogerS wrote on 9/8/2024, 2:54 AM

Around 13:00 on YouTube if I advance or go back using the , . keys (going one frame at a time), I see numerous duplicate frames.

Can you double-check the source media using a player (generally use the arrow keys to go a frame at a time).

Also see in MediaInfo if it's variable framerate https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/faq-how-to-post-mediainfo-and-vegas-pro-file-properties--104561/

You should also see this multiple duplicate frames on the VEGAS timeline.

If there's a lot of variability you could have a program like ShutterEncoder convert it to constant framerate for you.

Oki wrote on 9/8/2024, 3:28 AM

Around 13:00 on YouTube if I advance or go back using the , . keys (going one frame at a time), I see numerous duplicate frames.

Can you double-check the source media using a player (generally use the arrow keys to go a frame at a time).

Also see in MediaInfo if it's variable framerate https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/faq-how-to-post-mediainfo-and-vegas-pro-file-properties--104561/

You should also see this multiple duplicate frames on the VEGAS timeline.

If there's a lot of variability you could have a program like ShutterEncoder convert it to constant framerate for you.

Firstly, thx for the hint about moving a frame at a time on youtube. I didn't know that.

Secondly, I don't have the source media for that particular video any longer to check.

Thirdly, the playback in the vegas timeline is ALWAYS nice and smooth, so would that indicate no duplicate frames? I have always been rendering in CBR but wondered if I should do it in VBR? I've tested that before and didn't seem to make a difference.

Lastly, I downloaded MediaInfo and checked my last source media from the video camera I use. The Bit Rate Mode is Variable, and the Frame Rate Mode is Constant.

EricLNZ wrote on 9/8/2024, 4:03 AM

I have to look many times to try and find the area that concerns you. You are travelling on an unsealed road with objects flashing by!

My query is does your export settings match your camera material, especially the framerate..

You've downloaded MediaInfo. Please post its full info. Instructions are in the link RogerS gave you. Please also post details of your render template.

Oki wrote on 9/8/2024, 4:22 AM

I was only driving slowly on that road for your information. I have travelled fast along other roads before and the footage was fine and smooth. It seems to be so random.

Here is the mediainfo as requested.

General
Complete name                            : D:\Downloads\A LATEST WORK\Strathbogie\Videos\C0076.MP4
Format                                   : XAVC
Codec ID                                 : XAVC (XAVC/mp42/iso2)
File size                                : 2.10 GiB
Duration                                 : 5 min 47 s
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 52.0 Mb/s
Frame rate                               : 59.940 FPS
Encoded date                             : 2024-09-05 01:42:06 UTC
Tagged date                              : 2024-09-05 01:42:06 UTCVideo
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : High@L4.2
Format settings                          : CABAC / 2 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes
Format settings, Reference frames        : 2 frames
Format settings, GOP                     : M=1, N=15
Format settings, Slice count             : 4 slices per frame
Codec ID                                 : avc1
Codec ID/Info                            : Advanced Video Coding
Duration                                 : 5 min 47 s
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 50.0 Mb/s
Maximum bit rate                         : 60.0 Mb/s
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 59.940 (60000/1001) FPS
Standard                                 : NTSC
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.402
Stream size                              : 2.02 GiB (96%)
Encoded date                             : 2024-09-05 01:42:06 UTC
Tagged date                              : 2024-09-05 01:42:06 UTC
Color range                              : Limited
Color primaries                          : BT.709
Transfer characteristics                 : xvYCC
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709
Metas                                    : 3
Codec configuration box                  : avcCAudio
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : PCM
Format settings                          : Big / Signed
Codec ID                                 : twos
Duration                                 : 5 min 47 s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 1 536 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Bit depth                                : 16 bits
Stream size                              : 63.6 MiB (3%)
Encoded date                             : 2024-09-05 01:42:06 UTC
Tagged date                              : 2024-09-05 01:42:06 UTCOther
ID                                       : 3
Type                                     : meta
Format                                   : Sony Real Time Metadata
Codec ID                                 : rtmd
Duration                                 : 5 min 47 s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Time code of first frame                 : 16:52:14;38
Encoded date                             : 2024-09-05 01:42:06 UTC
Tagged date                              : 2024-09-05 01:42:06 UTC
IrisFNumber_FirstFrame                   : 2.800091
FocusPositionFromImagePlane_FirstFrame   : 42900000.000 m
AutoExposureMode_FirstFrame              : Full Auto
AutoFocusSensingAreaSetting_FirstFrame   : Manual
ShutterSpeed_Time_FirstFrame             : 1/3000 s
CameraMasterGainAdjustment_FirstFrame    : 0.00 dB
ElectricalExtenderMagnification_FirstFra : 100%
AutoWhiteBalanceMode_FirstFrame          : Hold

Here a source file property

General
  Name: C0062.MP4
  Folder: D:\Downloads\A LATEST WORK\Strathbogie\Videos
  Type: AVC
  Size: 609.21 MB (623,827,834 bytes)
  Created: Thursday, 5 September 2024, 4:33:09 PM
  Modified: Wednesday, 4 September 2024, 3:38:12 PM
  Accessed: Sunday, 8 September 2024, 7:09:26 PM
  Attributes: ArchiveStreams
  Video: 00:01:36.096, 59.940 fps progressive, 1920x1080x12, AVC
  Audio: 00:01:36.092, 48,000 Hz, Stereo, PCMSummary
  [TCFM]: 566935683080Capture
  Recorded: Wednesday, 4 September 2024 3:36:35 PMACID information
  ACID chunk: no
  Stretch chunk: no
  Stretch list: no
  Stretch info2: no
  Beat markers: no
  Detected beats: noOther metadata
  Regions/markers: no
  Command markers: no
  UMID: 060a2b340101010501010d43-13-000000-8ab780a6570506cc60f189fffeae9bdbMedia manager
  Media tags: noPlug-In
  Name: compoundplug.dll
  Folder: C:\Program Files\VEGAS\VEGAS Pro 15.0\FileIO Plug-Ins\compoundplug
  Format: AVC
  Version: Version 15.0 (Build 177)
  Company: MAGIX Computer Products Intl. Co.

This is my render setting FYI.

Audio: 128 Kbps, 48,000 Hz, 16 Bit, Stereo, WMA
Video: 25 fps, 1920x1080 Progressive, 8.4 Mbps
Pixel Aspect Ratio: 1.000

EricLNZ wrote on 9/8/2024, 5:04 AM

@Oki Your source video is 59.94 fps (NTSC) and you are rendering at 25 fps (PAL). That's a substantial frame drop which will cause jerkiness.

Your video was shot in Aussie and you sound Aussie so presumably you live there. If so why are you shooting 59.94 NTSC framerate and not 50 fps PAL?

Anyway try rendering using a 59.94 progressive template. Also the render bitrate of 8.4 Mbps is low. Your source is 50.00 Mbps. I'd render using a VBR rate around 20 Mbps for 1080 material.

Oki wrote on 9/8/2024, 5:39 AM

@Oki Your source video is 59.94 fps (NTSC) and you are rendering at 25 fps (PAL). That's a substantial frame drop which will cause jerkiness.

Your video was shot in Aussie and you sound Aussie so presumably you live there. If so why are you shooting 59.94 NTSC framerate and not 50 fps PAL?

Anyway try rendering using a 59.94 progressive template. Also the render bitrate of 8.4 Mbps is low. Your source is 50.00 Mbps. I'd render using a VBR rate around 20 Mbps for 1080 material.

Ok thx Eric. Camera is in NTSC so I'll change the render FPS to match. I'll also change the bitrate thx.

In the render custom settings box under bitrate, I see there''s a note that says "The video encoding mode must be CBR to encode to a multi-bit rate". What is a "multi-bit rate"? And should I choose "Bit Rate VBR (Peak)", "Quality VBR" or "Bit Rate VBR"? DO I just set "average Bit Rate" to 20M, or even higher?

EricLNZ wrote on 9/8/2024, 5:53 AM

Which template are you using? It's probably different to what I have in VP21 but there's probably someone who still has VP15 installed so can answer your queries.

With VBR I set Max on 28 and average on 20.

RogerS wrote on 9/8/2024, 6:05 AM

In addition to Eric's very good advice let me suggest trying a more modern render format like MagixAVC with Mainconcept. For this existing footage you can use it as is or at exactly half the framerate (29.97) which should look good. In the future sticking to PAL or NTSC is recommended.

I'd use the default bitrates for HD (variable, not constant is more efficient).

For the timeline you can use the arrow keys to see if there are any duplicate frames. There shouldn't be with constant framerate footage so I also think it's this mismatch between source framerate and the render framerate with resampling presumably set to off.

Oki wrote on 9/8/2024, 6:05 AM

oh over the years i've just created my own template in the WMV V11 format. 1080 (don't need higher) and now updated to your recommendations for the FPS and MBPS and VBR. Quick test on a sample seemed ok. Will see how it goes on my next project. Actually I might have a save project I can try it on. Thx for you help Eric.

Oki wrote on 9/8/2024, 6:13 AM

In addition to Eric's very good advice let me suggest trying a more modern render format like MagixAVC with Mainconcept. For this existing footage you can use it as is or at exactly half the framerate (29.97) which should look good. In the future sticking to PAL or NTSC is recommended.

I'd use the default bitrates for HD (variable, not constant is more efficient).

For the timeline you can use the arrow keys to see if there are any duplicate frames. There shouldn't be with constant framerate footage so I also think it's this mismatch between source framerate and the render framerate with resampling presumably set to off.

Y'know, I think I stuck with the WMV from something I read years ago, but now I see that YouTube prefers MP4, so I think I'll swap to the MagixAVC as you suggest, with the recommendations that Eric has provided. Looks good with a quick test I just did. Thx Roger

Dexcon wrote on 9/8/2024, 6:38 AM

Just FYI if you haven't seen this before - from YT's support webpage, the recommended upload encoding settings for YT:

https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/1722171?hl=en

BTW, I recently watched Driver667's excellent YT channel of the special 'The Vinelander' tourist train in June this year on its Woomelang to Birchip (near where you were filming) leg of its long trip from Mildura. During the trip from Mildura, there have been lots of photographers taking photos and videos of the train - even on the most remote gravel level crossings. The channel features videos shot from the train driver's POV.

Oki wrote on 9/8/2024, 6:47 AM

Just FYI if you haven't seen this before - from YT's support webpage, the recommended upload encoding settings for YT:

https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/1722171?hl=en

BTW, I recently watched Driver667's excellent YT channel of the special 'The Vinelander' tourist train in June this year on its Woomelang to Birchip (near where you were filming) leg of its long trip from Mildura. During the trip from Mildura, there have been lots of photographers taking photos and videos of the train - even on the most remote gravel level crossings. The channel features videos shot from the train driver's POV.

oh cool. I see they recommend 15MBPS rate for 1080 HD, so I might change it to that. Cheers.

RogerS wrote on 9/8/2024, 6:58 AM

That's on the low side- you can always give it more (at least set a maximum that's higher). Also if you decide to use a GPU encoder like NVENC give it more bitrate than Mainconcept to get a similar quality.

Oki wrote on 9/8/2024, 7:02 AM

That's on the low side- you can always give it more (at least set a maximum that's higher). Also if you decide to use a GPU encoder like NVENC give it more bitrate than Mainconcept to get a similar quality.

Roger that Roger :) So I'll leave it at 20M then.

RogerS wrote on 9/8/2024, 7:09 AM

Also look at the rendered file on a TV or computer screen and see if you notice compression artifacts that are not on the source footage. If you see them increase bitrate. If you don't see any you may be able to reduce the bitrate.

You can't control how YouTube re-compresses the video but at least you can at least upload a video without visual artifacts.

Oki wrote on 9/13/2024, 7:16 AM

I still seem to have a bit of an issue with YouTube. Firstly I'll just say that the rendered versions (I did a few tests) have all come out much nicer, smoother and clearer. But I can't seem to get a good result on youtube. These are the degraded results after uploading the various rendered versions that play beautifully on my PC. Do note though, watching on a phone doesn't show the degradation like it does on a computer.

59.94 FPS 1080P 20Mbps VBR Magix AVC MP4

59.94 FPS 1080P 14Mbps CBR Magix AVC MP4

59.94 FPS 1080P 28Mbps VBR Magix AVC MP4

59.94 FPS 1080P 50Mbps CBR Magix AVC MP4

59.94 FPS 1080P 15Mbps VBR Magix AVC NV Encoder HQ MP4

Can anyone help me get clearer videos on youtube please? Doing my head in.

EricLNZ wrote on 9/13/2024, 7:36 AM

It would do my head in. Something is not right with the YouTube streaming yet the specs indicate I'm looking at 1080. Well past midnight here and my bedtime so will have to look into further later.

Oki wrote on 9/13/2024, 8:06 AM

this 4k version is so much better but take longer to render of course

Dexcon wrote on 9/13/2024, 8:06 AM

Is there any particular reason that you are uploading UHD video at the lower HD quality (regardless of NTSC/PAL frame rates)? Can you try an UHD 4K upload and see how that looks in comparison to HD uploads to date?.

... watching on a phone doesn't show the degradation like it does on a computer.

That stands to reason because the image size of a phone's display is so much smaller than the usually much bigger computer monitor so the imperfections aren't so obvious smaller display. If the same video was displayed on a large projection screen, the imperfections would be much more obvious than on a computer monitor.

Oki wrote on 9/13/2024, 9:30 AM

Is there any particular reason that you are uploading UHD video at the lower HD quality (regardless of NTSC/PAL frame rates)? Can you try an UHD 4K upload and see how that looks in comparison to HD uploads to date?.

I'm not sure what you're meaning by UHD video, but I did upload a 4K version, which is the last one above I linked.

Dexcon wrote on 9/13/2024, 6:37 PM

UHD (Ultra High Definition) is 4K. I've just looked at the 4K upload on a 4K monitor and, yes, it is very much better.

On YouTube, I've found that watching an uploaded 2160p video but setting YT's quality to 1080p does quite dramatically reduce the video quality and introduces artifacts.

The following 2160p image is from a moving train:

The grass in the bottom LH area is reasonable ... but look at the same area with exactly the same image with YT set to 1080p:

... blurry with artifacts.

As has been mentioned by others on the forum over the years, YouTube compresses uploaded videos.

Oki wrote on 9/13/2024, 9:07 PM

Well this is sad. I did a bunch of tests and wasn't all that happy with the results except at 4k settings, but rendering takes so much longer. A friend of mine put me onto CapCut (just the free version) and all I can say is wow. The ease of use and rendering speeds blew me away. And the result was really good. It might be time to give Vegas the boot.

EricLNZ wrote on 9/13/2024, 9:20 PM

@Oki There's something very wrong here. I cannot fault YouTube's rendering of my 1080 50p videos done with VP21 using either Magix AVC or Sony AVC. An example here (needs to be watched on YouTube)

Even your 4K render looks very poor by comparison. My impression is that the bitrate is very low. Perhaps your rendered bitrate isn't what it's supposed to be? Could you show us MediaInfo for one of your files such as "59.94 FPS 1080P 20Mbps VBR Magix AVC MP4" so we can check.

Oki wrote on 9/13/2024, 9:27 PM

@EricLNZ i'm not going to do it now, I've spent too much time on this for the moment, but firstly, did you make sure you selected the right resolution in the youtube playback? Secondly, the bitrates i chose are in the file name, so there's your answer. I ended up trying various templates, but it's not until I set 2160 that the videos are any good. But the render time is also annoying. CapCut was so much faster for some reason. FYI, I can't run V21 on my PC. Anyway, time to get off my butt and get away from this computer.