HD Link: (can't seem to get an embedded HD video though)

I liked the use of depth of field and focus shifting. Not sure I could duplicate that with my Sony HD-HC1. If you spent a lot of time on lighting you did a good job because I just thought it looked good without drawing attention to any special lighting techniques.

Now could I do the same thing with a Nikon? If so, which one?

Obviously it looks great because someone who knows how to light was directing it, no suprises there.
35mm sized sensors have been around in the video world for years now. The cameras are way better than the 5D, they take real cine lenses not those horrors made for still cameras. Rack focus is reliable, they have real distance marks on them. I've yet to see a stills guy set focus with a tape and expect talent to hit a mark. The zooms track properly and breath less.
The electronics behind the sensors avoid the problems of the compression that the 5D and the 7D uses, have things vital to production like timecode and funcational viewfinders. Sensor readout time is much better avoiding the skew problem in both the 5D and the 7D. They've also been designed to record non stop without overheating. Most of them will over and under crank.

If you've only now discovered the 5D where in the world have you been, it's yesterdays news. At least the 7D records at 24fps which helps get closer to the look of film. The only problem with the 7D is it cooks faster and the sensor is smaller which makes going really wide a problem with good primes. Both are an interesting diversion but people seem to be moving past these cameras, just too many problems to wrangle. We threw a couple of thousand at one aspect of it (the compression) only to discover Canon had ruined the party for us.

Bob.

5d is getting new firmware to get all the 7d shooting modes. 24, 25, 60p for 720.

Good,
but here's a question. We've been trying to record from the HDMI output of the 7D into the AJA KiPro but there seems to be something added into the image by the camera making this useless. Anyone know of anyway to turn this off. Can we flash the camera's firmware to cure this problem? Magic Lantern?

Bob.

Bob,

It's not there yet. These aren't video cameras. Actually, they are a lot like crude film cameras with color reversal film in them. If you treat them that way, they do ok. No, you can't come out of the HDMI port yet. Yes the compression leaves something to be desired. Yes you can't shoot long, continuous takes, but you can't do that on film either. You can get decent glass for them if you want to pay about half Cine lens prices. And we certainly used tape to lay our focus out and marks on the floor for talent in our 5D movie shoot. Worked fine and we got critical focus even thought the 1st AC was working without a monitor.

I lit for F4 most of the time, 5.6 when I had to. F2 on one occasion when I had no choice. Ambient light was 2.5 FC!

There's a lot to like about these little things, and a few real drawbacks. If the drawbacks are show-stoppers then grab a RED or a D21 or F35 and get the work done.

It's about time! - glad to hear the framerates are coming to the 5D

Dave

Vic, an artist at work! Excellent. Stunning.

You really are squeezing out the value of this camera. Do you think you could go further with it? Is there a shot you have in mind that would stretch its muscles even more?

Was there anything in Post that you found hard to deal with in Vegas? Would you care to respond to Bob's comments?

I found this review by a chappie: http://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/5d-mk-ii.htmKen Rockwell[/link] - Here's one of his comments: "Video and HD — Who Cares?" plus a little further:"A mono mic is built in right below the "5D" label on the front, and there's an external stereo input!" - I enjoyed the "!" mark . . .

Is there going to be a truly titanic crash/clash of cameras soon? A 35mm sensor on a camera I COULD afford. Maybe that's the difference right there, Bob?

Best regards

Grazie

"Is there going to be a truly titanic crash/clash of cameras soon? A 35mm sensor on a camera I COULD afford. Maybe that's the difference right there, Bob?"

Well there is the Scarlet. We'll be buying one if it ever sees the light of day.
Thing is the cost of the camera is one thing, the cost of optics is another. As cameras get better and our work ends up on bigger screens lenses become the weak link in the chain.
Also don't forget all the other bits you need. Follow focus gear, matte box, filters, rails, viewfinders. The camera body is relatively cheap.

Bob.

Wow... what a turnout. Thanks to you all. As promised, I will try to address the various concerns listed.

Bob... I'm not certain, but I believe the Red Scarlett is a 2/3" sensor. In fact, trudging through the magnificent Red site did not reveal any working, deliverable camera with a full sized sensor. And sensor size is the whole thesis of my shooting style. I wonder if you'd be kind enough to list any of the other Prosumer (let's say under $6 grand) cameras that have full sized sensors.

While I appreciate your kudos to my lighting, my footage tells the tale, and my experience sez, you gotta have that full sized sensor to get that 35mm separation of imagery and shallow depth of field that most feature cinematographers dwell in.

You are right that I'm "late to the party" about the 5D. It was released in September 08. But when I originally shot the Carina K video that October, you couldn't set a fixed ISO, f stop or shutter speed. That essentially meant enormous work-arounds for a videographer as exposure would drift. It wasn't worth the aggravation at that point. More recently Canon released a firmware fix which addressed these problems, and now it's just like a "real" camera.

So why did I originally not love the camera and what changed my mind? Hmmm...

I believe PerroneFord hit the nail on the head. Shooting with the 5D is much closer to my roots as a cinematographer. My favorite axe was the Arri II. It used 400' loads (about 3.5 minutes) and 1,000' loads (a litle under 10 minutes). For most of my career I wound NEVER deign to use a zoom lens (ugh, hack) and was confined to the available primes. To do a zoom, we'd simply lay tracks. That was a 5 man operation. In the mid to late '80s I discovered the Cooke zooms and under certain circumstances would use one. These are $35,000 lenses.

Once I moved into video with the introduction of the Sony 3 chip camera (sorry I've forgotten the model number), I also began to utilize the zoom lens. While major advances have been made in zoom lens technology, the sensor size (either 1/2" or 2/3") still didn't give me that limited DOF, that I was lusting after.

I Still don't believe in the "24fps looks like 35mm film" theory. I hated 24fps in film, often shooting and transferring at 30fps, when the budget allowed. Why? Because my end product was TV commercials and you couldn't do a fast pan w/o getting a strobing problem. But tha't a personal belief. I continue to shoot at 60i. Quite frankly, at this point in my career, I've totally LOST the love of film altogether. I doubt I'll ever shoot 35 again. I just can see that the technology has surpassed film in lattitude, exposure range, low light sensativity and general manipulation ability. If you miss your exposure in Film by more than a stop (and you won't know that until tomorrow morning) - you have screwed the pooch. Video? You see it right away, and you STILL have enormous range of correction available to you.

What didn't I like that changed? (C'mon Victor you can stay focused...)
Well, it sure ain't the video cameras we have come to love and rely on.
A - limited zoom function - still lenses were never intended to do smooth zooms - no motors even available - just like in the old days of film.
B - no real time auto focus - and with the longer lenses you've got to use, hitting focus is a MAJOR necessity
C - eyepiece viewing - you're working off the "live view" screen - whoops - not a critical focusing environment - but you CAN attach a hi-rez monitor (6" or so on camera up to whatever you like on a cart) which will assure you needle sharp imagery
D - form factor - withous some sort of hand-held rig, you will drop from exhaustion and cramping after a day of shooting live video with this - which is why I used a cameraman (heh heh) and of course, I primarily use legs for EVERYTHING that is not intended to shake.

Why do I love the camera now? Look at the footage. Regardless of everyone's confidence in my directorial and lighting skills (thank you very much one and all) - this is the only tool I've found that will deliver that footage. So like a beautiful and passionate woman - I put up with the problems to get the end result.

This is a game changer. I predict that someone will someday deliver a Prosumer priced VIDEO CAMERA (which this isn't even marketed as) using the full sized sensors and real zoomable 35mm lenses.

Meanwhile, I'm accumulating footage and getting jobs with this camera - pain in the butt though it may be.

For those of you on the brink of purchase... if you're shooting what I am - set-up shots with directable talent - this is the one. If you have no control over what's going on - you will hate it.

v
ps - no I don't believe Niko or anyone else has anything that's comparable

" I wonder if you'd be kind enough to list any of the other Prosumer (let's say under $6 grand) cameras that have full sized sensors."

As of today there isn't any. Your original post though didn't place any price limit on shooting with a 35mm sensor. I could make a list of cameras available today though with a 35mm sensor ignoring price, one being the Red which the latest version of Vegas supports. I'm told you can rent these at least in LA for peanuts, there's so many around I've been told prices are down to as little as $50/day.

We have priced out a full 5D kit, not much change out of $15K. That includes rails, FF gear, matte box, audio bits and pieces, monitor and a set of six Canon prime lenses.

For that kind of money you could buy an EX1 and a FlashXDR. With that, a bucket load of skill, a good crew, some CGI and go shoot something like this:



That is for broadcast and just to avoid any possible confusion I HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS PRODUCTION.

But it does show what can be done with over the counter kit that's fully functional out of the box, today, doesn't cost an arm and a leg and if you're good enough you can sell it to any broadcaster.

Going back to your demo reel, I'll say it again because it's so important. What makes that look so good is Victor Milt and his crew, not the camera. OK, I know you hang your hat on selective focus but come on, you're no one trick pony, you're way better than that. To me this is so important because so many think the exact opposite, they think they can buy that camera and do you out of a job. These are the same people I can't get to part with a few extra dollars and rent a half decent tripod. Don't get me started on them and audio :)
If I sound a little hostile, my apologies but I recently wasted a good amount of time trying to cut around shots ruined by jerky pans, useless audio and camera shake. The guy is still talking about getting a better camera and for the life of me I can't get him to spend the money on a better tripod. The camera he has is well, good enough, just. The footage from it would have been marketable if it wasn't for the tripod.

Personally I'm over the moon with my EX1, I and a few others find that camera with its 1/2" sensors enough of a pain to nail focus with. I've shot a set piece, with talent, and a director and my biggest fight was trying to get enough DOF. 1080p is brutal on the big screen, what's in focus is razor sharp and that's what the eye is drawn to. I should have taken a heck of a lot more light to the shoot but no budget for a crew to lug stuff.

At the consummer level what another local Vegas user is working on, with my input, is an affordable 3D mirror rig. The MKI rig has been built, the MKII rig is being built now.
I don't know if you were at NAB this year but 3D was everywhere, next year Sony will be broadcasting a lot of the Winter Olympics in 3D. I know the industry has been down the 3D road before but this time I think it'll be here for good. It's a beast to work with, the creative side posses many new challenges.

Bob.

Thanks for the link Bob, great stuff! I will add that they did use a 35mm adapter on the EX1:

http://www.kaitangatatwitch.co.nz/gallery/images/kt_044.jpg

I don't know if people are tracking some of the DSLR news but I'm just going to throw this link out there:

http://philipbloom.co.uk/2009/12/12/the-tale-of-lucasfilm-skywalker-ranch-red-tails-star-wars-and-canon-dslrs/

This is a very interesting discussion.

Vic, your stuff looks great! What were your camera profile settings? My only observation is that my eye wants to see this in 24p, I just really like that film judder.

Gosh Bob -
Actually you've proven my point. That production was shot with a 35mm Adapter.
I sort of liked them - never really did a lot with the later more improved versions, but let's face it.
How can you compare the video I'm getting from an unobstructed Canon "L" lens to whatever you'd get off of spinning disc with a Nikon kit lens.
Further, how can you compare the 2/3" sensor in the EX1 to the 1 1/4" one in the MKii?
Finally how can you compare virtually ANY sensor around to one that actually delivers 23MP still images and is capable of shooting at ISO 1600? (higher available, but I'll keep to what I've used successfully).

Conceptually - the very fine author of the piece you show, and I, are exactly on the same page... exactly. But he's using a video monster (look at that thing) - and I'm using a still camera monster!

My camera would look exactly the same if tricked out with the same gear. My excitement is using a camera that ALLOWS me the freedom to produce that kind of footage.

Now - and lets remember that this forum is here at the courtesy and kindness of Sony... I won't get into costs on this page. But I'd say that three high speed zooms at about $1600 each and one or two high speed primes are all I would need to shoot a feature. Rack, rails, monitor - well I see all those on the EX1, too.
In this case for me it's just "my lens is sharper than your lens" and "my sensor is bigger than yours".

Thems fighting words and NO WAY will I fight with someone as knowledgeable, kind, helpful and did I say technically WAY more savy than me... oh yeah - add in, as experienced as you can get , as Bob Farss. Plus I like and respect BF a lot! I read everything he writes and I pay attention.

Let's leave it where it all started:
Hey Gang - look at this!
v

One thing I'm curious about, if I read what you had to say elsewhere correctly you were shooting 30fps at 1/30 i.e. 360deg shutter. Any particular reason for that?

Bob.

This in answer to two questions.
I received the camera on Wednesday and shot on Friday.

Surprisingly, It's totally different than the 5D (original) that I had been shooting with for three or four years, both in function (still vs video), live view (the little rear screen that you MUST use to shoot video), and the button and menu layout (much changed and much better) -

So, the answers are simple.
Profile? Whatever the camera ships with. I will be exploring this and many functions in the future.
1/30th second - well, film commonly shoots at 1/48th of a second (at 24fps with a shutter of 180 degrees). So I wasn't afraid to give it a try. The principal reason for that try was available light. With the exception of the 85mm f1.8, my main lenses were 2.8, and with the 70-200mm zoom at 4-5.6. We shot everything wide open.

I really didn't want to push the ISO much beyond 650, for fear of noise.
Add it all up = 1/30th of a second.

I understand that Canon is releasing yet another firmware update to give me some variation in shutter speed, namely the elusive 24fps. I will be quite curious to see the difference. I personally never liked the look or the stutter of 24fps.

I ran a 75' USB cable with digital repeaters at each end from the camera to my laptop. With the enclosed Canon software, I was able to monitor what the camera was shooting, while the cameraman could also see the live view. Very much like DV Rack (which I LOVE), but I had an issue with that system, however since the updates were only about at 4 fps. I will be experimenting with HDMI and analog out later this week, for viewing and focus issues.

It takes time to learn a new camera. I hate it and I love it, I guess like every other addiction.

First, I would like to add to the praises that your Canon 5D MkII piece is about the best I have seen, so far, on the Internet in showing the image strengths of the 5D MkII (and even the 7D). Thanks (in no small part) to the ability to witness the thing in 1080p on YouTube (how did you accomplish that?); I can see facial details and rich color that I only hoped were available to users of this new breed of camera. There has been so much negative reporting on how lousy the “codec” and sensor reading are on the 5D MkII and 7D (by a handful of critics) that it’s enough to make skeptics out of believers! However, through the light, and my somewhat detached perspective, I now see that the most revealing thing about these comments is the personalities of the commentators and not really what they are commenting on. This is an unfortunate byproduct of a forums design. Be that as it may, thank you again on your wonderful work...

Thank you DigVid...

in the end you will not be judged by the equipment you use, the codecs you accumulate or the software you master.

You will be judged solely by what's on the screen - no matter HOW it gets there.

v

Nice Job.

"I shot it with a cameraman and I was Director/Gaffer. We started at 8am and wrapped at 5pm with a 40 minute lunch during which the entire crew broke, and ate burgers. Both of us had a great lunch."

That is a lot of shooting for 1 day. Congrats on not only the final project, but getting that amount of shots and setups in one day. I'm impressed.

I'm in total agreement with you. It was and still is a game changer. For every naysayer you will find 100's of users whom agree with you.

For a first time user of the camera, you did good. Lots of forums out there to help. In the US, the camera was not officially shipped out until the week of thanksgiving in 2008, not September. All other footage seen before that were from loaners and prototypes.

I saw your equipment usage list on youtube, but was curious as to if you used a steadicam or so other mounting system on a couple of the hand held shots?

It is a pain in the butt to do some of the work arounds for a few off the camera's "left off" or purposely "taken off" features, however, they can be worked with like external sound or using Magic Lantern firmware hack to use external connections into the camera and control the audio level.

Some of the common complalints I see from people whom don't like the camera, are based on "pixel peeping" and the rolling shutter effects. I have the 7D and 5D and those are legitimate issues. However, as you alluded to in this tread, JUST LOOK AT THE FINAL RESULTS. The rolling shutter issue has to be managed. There are just some shots this camera isn't going to be able to do.

Any chance you'd put your footage up on Vimeo or maybe Exposure room? You work will show better in my opinion.

That being said, enjoy the camera and keep up the good work. Technology is moving fast and there are new markets being opened up because of this camera. Something new will be here soon enough to knock the 5D MKII into obsolescence

5 years from now we will laughing our asses off as we say "that was lot of work shooting and in post to make the camera work". However, we will also be saying, yea, but I became a better filmmaker and made money, so it wasn't all bad.

"You will be judged solely by what's on the screen - no matter HOW it gets there." Isn't that one of the ten commandments of marketing and the title page in Hollywood's bible? ;-)

>>"You will be judged solely by what's on the screen - no matter HOW it gets there." Isn't that one of the ten commandments of marketing and the title page in Hollywood's bible? ;-)

APIT -
As far as I know it's a Milt original.

I used to write a column for Backstage Magazine, in the 80's (Director's Notebook), and that was the first time I put it out there in print. Have no idea if the Hollywood Bible predates my musings nor did I ever read that book. If it does predate me, then I must have unconsciously adopted it. But if it's after that... well, it wouldn't be the first time someone took something I shot or said or wrote, and made it their own.

Regardless - everyone on this site should try to remember exactly WHAT they are doing - which in the end is making movies (and loving it!).

I've been hammered with much the same saying a couple of times, "All that matters is how it looks on the big screen".

The other one is "In this business you're only as good as your last job"

Bob.

"As far as I know it's a Milt original. " hey, I'll go with that! I think the word "solely " is more of a Milt's touch. ;-) Of course, I'm a little bias, I'm been a fan of Vic's early commercial work for tv and like the fact he uses VEGAS. ;-) But Vic has a real handle on the DOF subject, which is way too many times people don't understand or use incorrectly.

Always like his phrase "So like a beautiful and passionate woman - I put up with the problems to get the end result." dealing with "work". ;-)

I had thought that there weren't too many full sized sensors, and now apparently I'm backed by the folks at Magic Lantern, as follows:

Magic Lantern is an open platform for developing enhancements to the amazing Canon 5D Mark II full frame digital SLR. This camera is a "game changer" for independent film makers:

It allows the use of a wide range of lenses (anything that can be adapted to the EF mount).
The 35mm full-frame sensor is larger than the RED ONE's sensor, Super 35 film. It is approximately the size of VistaVision. This means shallower native depth-of-field than anything on the market, except for the Phantom 65.
The dynamic range and latitude are close to the capabilities of high-end HD cameras.
The low-light performance is currently unrivaled, even by the RED ONE.

See more from these folks, including a very interesting video on their independent firmware updates:

http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_Lantern_Firmware_Wiki