Canopus ADVC-100 mediated transfer of Analog Video and DV…

Family_Voices wrote on 7/11/2003, 11:27 PM
My laptop (my best PC) is powerful enough for NLE and running Vegas 4 but an NLE analog input video card is not a practical possibility. I have purchased a Sony DSR-11 DVcam deck (on its way) and I have an external IEEE-1394 / firewire media dedicated 7200rpm hard drive.

I have been intrigued by the Canopus ADVC-100 interface box (I have found it available for near $250, it is easily found at $300) but I have not been able to decide if I need to have one.

If “live” S-Video and audio is available from the analog out ports of the DSR-11 deck (when a stream is being sent towards the deck) and if a good quality DV and audio stream will be available if I connect a S-VHS deck up to the DSR-11 with audio and S-Video cables and play VHS (usually, more rarely S-VHS) tapes in that analog deck, It would seem to have it covered. But…

I am not sure that the DSR-11 will work this way and I am not sure that Vegas will output a DV stream towards the DSR-11 deck (so it can pass along the analog) if a tape is not in it and being recorded. A good look at the manual would probably answer these questions but I won’t have the manual until I get the deck.

My most important application of this system as described will be saving aging VHS home movies by transferring them to DV. It is important that I have the ability to get the best possible affordable capture of DV video and associated audio from the VHS tapes the very next time they are played. (These have not been played in over 15 years; they are around 20 years old.)

Is the DSR-11 going to work (at all) in this way? Is it a superior (or perhaps more likely a second-rate) way to go (even) if it will work. Would the Canopus ADVC-100 do this for me, would it be acceptable for use as a home movie rescue operation as described and be superior to trying to let the Sony DSR-11 deck handle these conversions for me?

My reading of most information on the Internet suggests that DV camcorders and similar in general are excellent ways to get the analog audio and video into and out of PCs via firewire. I have seen a lot of positive mentions (without any actual critical analysis) on this forum concerning the use of the Canopus ADVC-100 in the way I have considered.

These tapes are important to my family (unique, aging, priceless) and it is worth it to me to get the Canopus ADVC-100 if that will allow me to get any better (or more reliably and with less potential for foul up) transfers of the information from the tapes into the PC.

Thank you for your assistance. Details, explanations, specs, experiences and links are all welcomed.

Best regards,
Ralph Bradley
July 12, 2003

Comments

filmy wrote on 7/11/2003, 11:53 PM
FWIW - if your only need for the ADVC-100 would be for VHS > Mini-DV or DV-Cam you might consider a JVC SR-VS30. You can take your VHS tapes and just do a dub onto mini-dv...or with this one unit:

1> VHS to PC via firewire
2> VHS to your DSR-11 via firewire
3> Mini-DV to your DSR-11 via firewire
4> VHS > Mini-Dv and DSR-11 at the same time via firewire

The concept is that you have one unit and not so much hassle. The SR-VS30 will also playback (only) the mini-dv sized DV-CAM tapes.

Just a thought.
mikkie wrote on 7/12/2003, 11:19 AM
If I understand your post correctly, Ralph, you're after taking your original (s)vhs footage, captureing it to your PC for editing, then outputting however (tape, DVD etc.)

The hard part is getting the analog vhs video into a digital format, which is what the Canopus box and similar do - think of it as the encoding portion of a dv camera put in a separate box - take the signal from your (s)vhs deck & convert the picture to the digital DV format which is then transfered via 1394 to your computer's hard drive. If you can accomplish this conversion already with a dv based deck, then a separate box to do the analog to digital conversion would largely be impractical as the conversion need only happen once. The Canopus box is popular because of it's low cost etc., works well, but I'd recomend checking out the Canopus forums for any current/past problems. Other folks find that using a DV camcorder works well (providing it allows SVHS cable in), and it is possible through careful shopping to get a camera for not that much more then a box like the Canopus. Also, the same company makes a cheaper version that only does the a/d conversion one way.

Alternatives to going DV are out there, usually using mpg2 - all I frame mpg2 is considered by many to be roughly equivilent to DV when it's *at the same bandwidth* as DV. There are a lot of pros and cons however, so you'd want to do a bit of research first. In my opinion, as the source is mostly vhs, you'd have no gains over using DV.



thrillcat wrote on 7/12/2003, 12:31 PM
Your DSR11 will do exactly what you want it to do. It passes video through just fine. In fact, when I have problems with an old VHS tape dropping frames through my other boxes, I bring home the DSR11 from the office and it works perfectly.

The DSR11 is in fact a professional product, and it's quality shows it.
kentwolf wrote on 7/12/2003, 4:07 PM
I have a Canopus ADVC-100 and also use it for converting old home videos from analog to digital.

It works absolute perfect and was well worth the money.

Also, the ADVC-100 allows you to send video out from the computer to video tape, if need by...for people who want to see your video footage, but don't have a DVD player.

Just my $0.02.
donp wrote on 7/12/2003, 6:02 PM
I use the Canopus ADVC-1394 with front bay. I had an analog camera until last month when I bought a Sony TRV-350. The camera has Analog to DV passthrough and vice versa. However I still need to do more of my old VHS tapes and the ADVC-1394 front bay handles that great. I visit the Canopus ADVC Family Forums regularly there is more discussion the on the ADVC-100 than the ADVC-1394 for two reasons there are more ADVC-100's out there and ADVC-1394 works more painlessly than the 100. There has been some recent discussion on that particular topic on the Canopus forum.

Of coarse you can still capture your digital video directly too
farss wrote on 7/12/2003, 6:29 PM
Given that the DSR-11 can handle the A to D conversion I'd be a bit more focused on the VHS player. Certainly using a SVHS deck is a good move, I bought a JVC myself recently. They are not only a better way to play out VHS they do a better job of recording it due to wider heads.

I haven't checked out the particular model that you bought but what I'm now regretting is not spending the extra bucks and getting the one with a TBC even though I'd have to import it from the US as JVC don't sell that model in Australia. Having a TBC means it should cope with dropped lines and will correct for jitter in the horizontal blanking. These are errors that you just cannot correct later (well as far as I know!). All the VHS material that I work with has to be masked to get rid of the jagged edges which is a total pain as I do so much of it.

The other thing I love about the JVC SVHS decks are the way the handle the tape. Most other consummer VHS decks spool at breakneck speed which is great if its not your tape but if its something that you'd like to handle delicately its not a good look as it causes edge damage.
John_Cline wrote on 7/12/2003, 6:56 PM
Timebase correction is a MUST for analog to DV transfers. The JVC S-VHS decks with built-in timebase correctors and noise reduction are great for transferring VHS to DV. For anyone on a budget, I recommend them highly.

John
Family_Voices wrote on 7/12/2003, 7:48 PM
These responses are appreciated. You guys are really helplful. Thank you all.

Thrillcat, the assurances about the DSR-11 are very welcome. I don't always pick winners. I just wrote up the trials and tears of my Maxtor 5000DV external 7200rpm drive and posted to the thread about drive formats (FAT vs. NTFS). The drive failed while being formatted to NTFS. I am having to get another one. I probabl will choose a new vendor and make. Any suggestions appreciated (but post to the other thread, off topic here, sorry).

John_Cline and another mentioned time based correction built into (hopefully affordable) certain JVC* decks. Any other references on the indespensible value of the TBC, John, will be much appreciated. I just keep pushing back the day when I can get the video off our family movie VHS tapes that have not been played for about 15 to 24 years now.

Best regards,
Ralph
7/12/2003

Bonus section (sometimes regular feature, sometimes incorporates the footnotes as well):

*I am not down on JVC (not like some who typically write something about "quality control" or even "don't buy JVC"). JVC brought forth VHS followed by S-VHS, S-video and were on a roll until the D9 (is that the one) format. This one has the same form factor as the VHS deck and that caused too many to choke as it really is far out of size proportion to the DV25 formats. But it does offer 4:2:2 and samples at 50Mb/s as I recall. Impressive I would say. I have read that 4:2:2 50mb/s up-converts to HDTV much more satisfactorily then the DV25 at 4:1:1 does.

Quite a few months ago I considered getting one of those JVC twofer decks, the ambidextrous VHS/S-VHS and mini-DV-cassette decks. I became concerned that there was not enough controls built into them (I don't think there were any, but it had a cute programmable editing system to make exact dupes from a "master", it cannot be computer controlled as I recall) to be exactly what I needed. But with the external IEEE-1394 / firewire in/out port as well and claims for pass through capability they were tempting. Several on this forum have recently said they got one and like it.

The S-VHS deck that I have is a higher-end Philips consumer grade from perhaps 8 years ago but with little miles on it. I am sure that it does not have TBC but it does have a jog wheel.
thrillcat wrote on 7/12/2003, 9:32 PM
I wasn't bashing the Canopus, but he said he had a DSR 11 on the way, which will do exactly what he needs without spending more for another box. It will do everything the Canopus will do, plus record DVCam tapes.
thrillcat wrote on 7/12/2003, 9:37 PM
Ralph, the DSR 11 will actually act as a TBC, from what I've found. The only thing I don't like about the deck is that there is no timecode readout on the front. Is it worth the extra $$$ to step up for Time Code? Not in my book.

Not that Time Code is the only thing you gain by stepping up, but, well, I'll shut up now.
filmy wrote on 7/12/2003, 9:44 PM
The deck control for the JVC decks was an issue after the VS10's because when they came out with vs20 and than VS30 many NLE's did not update their 'driver' lists. But I can assure you the DV30 does have deck control in VV and with Premiere and Avid Xpress you just choose the VS10 or VS20 control. There is a jog control on the deck and on the remote. The unit I have is the "pro" model - with most all of JVC's stuff there seems to be a "consumer" version and a "professional" version. With the VS30, for example, you can playback a DVCam tape and it will read SMPTE TC from the Mini-DV side while with the 'consumer' version you can't playback DVCam or read SMPTE TC.

I have had good results with JVC decks over the years - I actually have a HR-S5000U S-VHS deck from...um..1988 (!!) that is still running great. Original heads and all, never had it in for any sort of repair. (Now that I have said this watch - it will implode on me sometime in the next 48 hours) I am hoping the SR-VS30U will still be in as good of shape in 15 years.

"Most" of the newer JVC decks have some sort of TBC built in. While this is great I don't feel it is a true substitute for a good external unit that you can have control over if you need it. Actually if you do some clever shopping you could probably find an Amiga 2000 or 4000 with a TBC card in it for cheap. I know it sounds cheesy but with some luck you can find one for under 100 bucks and that is a lot cheaper than what you would pay for a stand alone TBC. Having said that however - in the wrong hands a TBC controler can be very mis-used. In theory you should also have scopes and all that fun stuff set up to but that is more BillyBoys dept. ;)

Family_Voices wrote on 7/12/2003, 11:10 PM
Hey, thrillcat, don't shut up; you’re on a roll. Help me though with the TBC (time base corrector). You are saying to use the DSR-11 as a pass through between the DV in the PC (in that wrapper / container *.avi thing) and some kind of S-Video deck connected to the DSR-11 with an S-Video cable. That is the highest interface available to an S-VHS/VHS deck, right? So then the TBR works in both directions? The DSR-11 can replace the need to have a TBC on the S-VHS deck? I just want to be sure I am getting this right.

I think I got the picture on the Canopus ADVC-100-- a good product (but it seems I should not have to have it). I thought it was a good product but I was not sure about needing it. That other Canopus product that got mentioned: Is that not the one that is a PCI board? Also doesn't it use the PC processor power for part of its work? The ADVC-100 is completely stand alone, takes no computing resources and works with the IEEE-1394 / firewire port which my laptop has native. I had to work around not having PCI capability.

The good remarks on the quality of JVC (by personal testimony) by filmy (next response down) are appreciated. I think that JVC is doing okay but they need friends. I thought that their twofer deck was a really nice concept. No one else had anything like it. I concur with the comments about their having a professional and a consumer line of several products. The interesting thing is that if you shop around you can get the professional product for about the same price as the consumer product. The channels are totally separate. You have to be careful because if you are looking at the consumer product you won't even be told about the step-up model by the consumer dealer. I got really confused over this until I realized that the “reviewers” were talking about two different models. The descriptions of them (in the case of the S-VHS/VHS-mini-DV-cassette deck) are virtually identical.

My thanks go to all the responders to this post. This thread along with the other threads I started yesterday (or contributed to) have been a good experience for me on this list. But you are keeping me busy keeping up--not complaining, keep responding; it’s working for me.

Best regards,
Ralph
July 13, 2003