"So my question, is Vegas limited to 8 bit color, or is it that Vegas is limited by the codecs it ships with, which are 8 bit color, or what exactly?"

Neither of these is true. Vegas is not limited to 8-bit color and it ships with at least 1 ten-bit codec, and numerous other 10-bit codecs are available for it to use.

Thanks. I must have completely misunderstood.

Is there some important Vegas color or codec issue or is Vegas firmly in step with the NLE competition?

Vegas is ahead in some areas, behind in others.

Oh, please get a life and some thicker skin, wilgen.

What? What are you talking about?

Fisheyes said:

"You couldn't pick up what I put down if you had a team of hands on your side working full time with velcro gloves"

mm hmmm - You must be pretty insecure if you have to brag about something that has no proof for others to measure it by. Ones actions (or work) speaks louder than words.

In my observation, you're but one example as to why the forums aren't taken seriously - comments like the ones you make only degrade the community as a whole. I've yet to see any comments like yours on the AVID forums, the Cinematography Forums, et al. Those venues provide concise, constructive discourse that is professional - you come across as a hack wannabe.

And I'm sure your professional experience is way more than those who have earned their credibility on these forums as compared to you. (sarcasm mine)

Maybe you should first start interacting like a professional if you want to be taken seriously.

As a side note - Perrone brings to the table way more experience than you and has earned his credibility. All I see coming from you is alot of smack talking and nothing to back it up.

Here's some advice - Move along Lookie Lou , there's nothing else for you to see here.

Cliff Etzel
Solo Video Journalist | Micro Documentary Film Maker
bluprojekt | SoloVJ Blog
--------
Desktop: OS: Win7 x64 | CPU: Q9400 | Mobo: Intel DG33TL | 8GB G.Skill Dual Channel RAM | Boot/Apps Drive: Seagate 160GB 7200RPM | Audio Drive: Seagate 160GB 7200RPM | Video Source: WD Black 2x750GB RAID 0 | Video Card: nVidia GeForce GT 220 1GB

Laptop: Dell Latitude D620 | C2D 2.0Ghz | 4GB G.Skill RAM | OS: Vista x64 | Primary HD: WD 320GB 7200RPM | Video HD: WD 250GB 5400RPM

>3. AVCHD is 8bit. Nearly all camcorder formats are 8bit. This is generally ok for most work, but is limiting once we get to editing and especially color correction and color grading. So moving to a 10bit codec brings advantages.

I shoot high profile AVCHD. I have only considered proxies or intermediates when AVCHD footage bogs down my editing. For most of my projects I am able to edit AVCHD direct without much speed problems.

However, I almost always do some color correction or color grading. Maybe I'm not very discriminating but these look good to me. But of course I want to deliver quality products to my customers. My question is, would you choose to use Cineform as an intermediate rather than edit high profile (~ 21Mbps, but 4:2:0) AVCHD based solely on better quality of the color corrected footage?

/jerry

"would you choose to use Cineform as an intermediate rather than edit high profile AVCHD based solely on better quality of the color corrected footage?"

Would I??? Probably. Well I'd most certainly use SOME 10bit codec (or higher) but if your clients can tell the difference, that's up to you.

If we may... I'd like to go back to the comment regarding Cineform over Sony MXF? Is there an absolute reason or is it preference?

I purchased Production Assistant to help batch render my 7D MOV files to MFX files. I have been able to edit such files very well and have had very good playback.

Am I missing something?

Chad

So far, my understanding is that 10 bit color is important if the intermediates are to be color corrected. Apparently, Sony's MXF format (which I think contains IMX-encoded video) is 8 bit. However, I defer to any of the many here who are vastly better schooled than I on the technical details.

One downside to using Cineform is that 5.1 audio has to be converted to stereo.

"So far, my understanding is that 10 bit color is important if the intermediates are to be color corrected. Apparently, Sony's MXF format (which I think contains IMX-encoded video) is 8 bit. However, I defer to any of the many here who are vastly better schooled than I on the technical details. "

The codec used in MXF is mpeg-2. It is a mathematically and visually lossy codec and only comes in 8 bit. It can be had with 4:2:2 chroma samply, the 50Mbps variant in Vegas gives us that much.

Cineform's wavelet codecs are also lossy but only mathematically lossy. Independant tests show that their top shelf codecs perform better than HDCAM SR so I think one can safely assume Cineform have a clue or two. Sony's MXF wrapped mpeg-2 is primarily an acquistion codec and is excellent as such. The question of "is it good enough to use as a DI" is one best left up to the user to evaluate based on a number of factors and how they are weighted in their production.

Bob.

For my own education, here's where I found information on Vegas MXF and IMX:

http://www.edithouse.com.au/information/imx.html

The link is 8 years old; perhaps it's out of date?

Or, are saying MXF is MPEG-2 because, at least as I understand it, IMX is MPEG-2 with the novel twist that all the frames are I-frames, and thus GOP is 1 vice 15?

Anyway, so far on the original topic I think I understand that the best approach is simply Neoscene. The free AVID codec apparently also requires TMPGEnc MPEG Editor 3 for $65, yet another video editor, which is only marginally less than $99 for Neoscene.

Anything 8 years old has zero bearing on the realities of today. MXF is Mpeg2 because that is the codec that is used to encode those signals inside that MXF file. This is easily verified. It's lossy, mathematically and visually, and won't hold up to multiple generations. Test it for yourself.

Neoscene may well be the best option for some. Probably for many. It wasn't for me, and I didn't buy it. Avid's DNxHD requires nothing that costs money. I've used it for 2 years now and have never bought anything to encode using it. For applications where I need to stay with an AVI I use the new Matrox VfW codecs. It's high bitrate, I-frame only, and excellent quality. Blows the included Sony MXF implementation out of the water, and it's also absolutely free.

To each their own.

OK, thanks.

After I installed the DNxHD and Matrox VfW codecs and started Vegas 9, I don't see them listed anywhere as possible options for use in rendering. Can I not simply use DNxHD or VfW to render intermediates directly from Vegas, using perhaps the Ultimate S Pro 4.1 batch render capability?

You will probably need to create a render template within Vegas itself.

I did that to access the template when using Proxy Stream.

DNxHD can only be used within a QT MOV container so that is how you will need to create the template. I don't have Ultimate S so I can verify. I use MPEG Streamclip on my m2t files and do a batch render accordingly and it works perfectly. The files are a little larger compared to Cineform, but I'm willing to make that trade off for other inconsistencies I've addressed in previous threads.

Cliff Etzel
Solo Video Journalist | Micro Documentary Film Maker
bluprojekt | SoloVJ Blog
--------
Desktop: OS: Win7 x64 | CPU: Q9400 | Mobo: Intel DG33TL | 8GB G.Skill Dual Channel RAM | Boot/Apps Drive: Seagate 160GB 7200RPM | Audio Drive: Seagate 160GB 7200RPM | Video Source: WD Black 2x750GB RAID 0 | Video Card: nVidia GeForce GT 220 1GB

Laptop: Dell Latitude D620 | C2D 2.0Ghz | 4GB G.Skill RAM | OS: Vista x64 | Primary HD: WD 320GB 7200RPM | Video HD: WD 250GB 5400RPM

To find the DNxHD codecs, you have to set up to render a .MOV

File > Render As > Save as type MOV > Custom > Video Tab > Video Format > Change the video format to Avid DNxHD, then hit the configure button and choose the settings.

The dialog box for DNxHD is a bit messed up. There is a small sliver of a window at the bottom that is barely visible. But if you click it, it will expand to show you the multitude of options.

The process to create a custom AVI is much the same as a MOV, except you choose the AVI type instead of MOV and go through the same steps.

Great! Thanks very much!

I had this same question (Cineform v MX4). After reading about both, and trying both, I paid Cineform for their NeoHD product. I absolutely consider it worth it, and recommend it to all who shoot in AVCHD and edit in Vegas Pro.

DNxHD certainly has a host of setting options. Can you recommend a few, or at least a starting point? Thanks.

I'm having no luck with MPEG Streamclip on Win 7 at all. I have Quicktime Pro 7 installed, but it complains it needs an MPEG-2 component. When I go with Quicktime Alternative 1.81, which it asks for, it can't play or convert my Panasonic AVCHD files. When I update Quicktime Alternative to 3.22, it complains that my Quicktime MPEG-2 component is out of day and should be updated.
Maybe I just need to buy te Apple MPEG-2 component, but most of the user reviews on the Apple WEB site are very unfavorable, complaining that it can't play MPEG-2 with embedded audio.

I'm lost here. IS MPEG Streamclip actually this hard, or am I just doing something wrong?

Mpeg Streamclip is a great program...for what it does. However, you are asking it to do something it cannot do. And that is work with Panasonic (or Canon) AVCHD files. I don't know if it works with Sony's because I have none here to test with.

Ditch the quicktime alternative. That's not the issue...