I, of course, realize that the article was written for Vegas Pro, which is why I was trying to figure out what VMS did with things. There seemed to be differences in the way things were done even in Pro, based on Vegas settings, so it seemed a reasonable question to ask what VMS did.

Your response to 1) is curious. If it were going to a TV screen, wouldn't that be considered an external device? I'm just talking about the regular preview window, the thing that is normally stuck in the VMS windows. How can that possible be a TV?
So why default it to something that looks like garbage when it's almost certainly going to a computer monitor in that mode?

It's very frustrating when you pepper your responses with 'if you pay attention' and comments about intellect. I'll be careful to try and not do the same.

It is NOT too much to expect that a simple clip, taken directly via 1394 from a DV camera would be playable in a reasonably viewable fashion on an NLE, is it? It is a weak area, when I can't bring in and view something accurately in such a simple fashion. Can't I expect something like that footage to come in and be accurately represented 'out of the box'?

If you were trying to say that there is no way of determining what some random codec is using for a colour space, then please say so. However, this wasn't, it was raw DV straight from the camera.

Now, aside from the chiding, my question still stands unanswered.

Do I need to worry about converting it to before the FX components get to it? Do I need to convert it to cRGB before I chroma key?

And for determining then, my 'astute powers' are all I have to go on? I just guess, if I don't have access to video scopes and external preview devices?

The part that upsets me, is I don't remember problems like this with any of the other NLEs I tested out first. None, not one. The video I watched looked like I expected it. So why make me out to look like an idiot? Other than I already spent my money.

You are putting the cart before the horse.

There is nothing wrong with the way any version of Vegas previews DV-AVI. Nothing. You think in ten years this hasn't been tested?

If your computer monitor needs to be calibrated, or if you are pre-emptively comparing it to your TV screen which could be set to anything (remember you brought it up, not me), or if you are introducing something into the workflow you have not yet told us about, as I pointed out, there are a whole bunch of other considerations, many of which I did not mention in deference to your questions.

Maybe someone else will be able to shed some light on your questions that I have missed. I hope so. Good luck to you.

You are putting the cart before the horse.

How so?

With a clean VMS install, I import DV footage via 1394, drop it on the timeline, and click play. With the preview window docked with the rest of the VMS windows on my computer monitor, it will look washed out because it's being displayed in sRGB. This is all consistent with Glenn's doc. I'm not even sure what the disagreement is here.

That's right? Personally, I don't think so. I'm honestly not sure who provided the DV decoder, but I would think that it is established enough that it is sRGB coming out, and if I'm just running in a windowed environment, it's not hard to know it should be converted to cRGB.

However, right/wrong/sloppy/lazy/stupid whatever, I'm trying to move on from that.

I was trying to figure out HOW to tell the difference, in VMS. I was confused as none of the other NLEs had this issue. Perhaps they all assume cRGB and I'd have trouble elsewhere like uploading to youtube and have my cRGB re-converted sRGB to cRGB. I don't know.

But I'm trying to find out how to find out. And trying to find out if this sRGB is also not giving the FXes a full gamut of colour to deal with, if I should pre-convert it, or forget about DV totally and re-encode to something that Vegas Pro/VMS assumes is cRGB when being decoded.

"With the preview window docked with the rest of the VMS windows on my computer monitor, it will look washed out because it's being displayed in sRGB. This is all consistent with Glenn's doc. I'm not even sure what the disagreement is here."

Nonsense. But welcome to the forums. Try unchecking "Adjust source media" box and see if it makes a difference. Match your media settings in your project. Oh, and good luck.
;?)

Open in Photoshop or Irfanview for best viewing experience, not your browser.

"With the preview window docked with the rest of the VMS windows on my computer monitor, it will look washed out because it's being displayed in sRGB. This is all consistent with Glenn's doc. I'm not even sure what the disagreement is here."

Nonsense.



I'm at a complete loss here. You're clearly a valued contributer here, and yet you're disagreeing with this outright.

I'm going to go back and figure out where I mis-stated what I meant, and re-read the following links (and all the other colour space threads I can find), all of which seemed to indicate my statement was correct.

http://techblog.cineform.com/?p=2959
http://www.glennchan.info/articles/vegas/colorspaces/colorspaces.html
http://www.glennchan.info/articles/vegas/v8color/vegas-9-levels.htm (although this is mostly 8bit vs 32bit full/video, and I'm VMS so I assume I'm 8bit)

And BTW, I wasn't aware that 'Adjust Media Source' affected colour spaces, I'll look into that also.
Also, I'm trying to follow your image example, but I think the DV-AVI was probably something rendered from Vegas and not from a camera? But according to Glenn, the PNG would be cRGB, so it would look right in a regular preview window. I _think_ you likely just SS'd these, I don't know what you used to test the Levels, but you're contradicting these other docs enough that I think I might need to go tape a few bars on the camera, import them and try and dissect them.

The entire point of that exercise was to demonstrate that Vegas' Preview does not change levels (in the case of DV) to Studio RGB, or anything else. If it did, the third grab would have looked like the fourth.

Sorry for that bit of confusion, but it does clearly explain to me part of what you are experiencing. I assumed you knew from reading that properly exposed DV (at least in N. America) is REC-601 (16-235). Many shooters consider the rest as "wiggle room." Assuming your monitor and graphics settings are reasonable, and there is nothing intervening in your workflow, the levels on the tape are what you see on the Vegas preview. I can find nothing in Glenn's tutorial that contradicts this. He says what you give it (with DV) is what you get back.

Bottom line: Vegas preview does not perform levels conversion on DV video. You may have taken the notion that it "expects" REC-601 (which is correct) to mean that it delivers REC-601 (which is not correct). It delivers what it is given (within 0-255).

However, if you want to force something resembling a Computer RGB conversion in order to add contrast to your DV video, feel free to do so. I have done it several times. But doing so, you risk losing shadow and highlight detail, and can introduce noise. And I think it is unreasonable to expect Vegas to do this for you without purposeful human intervention, as it would show up in both the preview and render, perhaps against your wishes. I wonder if you assumed it should be 0-255 off the tape? I don't think consumer camcorders that lack full manual control will even allow this.

Here is a nicely exposed DV frame straight from a Sony DSR-PD150. The levels are exactly the same on the Vegas preview as they are in the file. As you can see, this shooter plays a little loose with REC-601, and yet it should be clear that no conversion is being performed. Bringing the input levels in a little bit makes it even "purtier" in the preview, but the render is the only true test, ideally done on carefully calibrated screens.

Just one more note, if you compare the digital output to the IRE 7.5 setup from your camera's analog out, they will not match.

Unfortunately, this will have to be my last post on this topic. But I'm glad you started it. It's given me an opportunity to clear up some details I was fuzzy about. And I wanted to mention the "Product Suggestions" link in the Support dropdown at the the top of this page (keeping in mind that Vegas is not the culprit).

Below is a link "only" because of what browsers do to .png images. Right-click and "Save Link As," then open it in Photoshop or Irfanview for viewing.
http://shell.dim.com/~musicvid/lsohLev.png

Not having the benefit of Vegas Pro, I wrote myself a little colour plotter/scope plug-in this afternoon and I am currently playing with various input file formats/types to see what I see.

One thing I think was misrepresented/misunderstood though, was that I thought Vegas was 'messing up' the video somehow. Quite the contrary, I was afraid I'd mess up the video. If I performed colour correction etc based on what I was seeing in the preview window, to make it look "good" to my eyes, it would have been horrible if output to any output wanting sRGB. Viewing it with an sRGB to cRGB correction however, I get a far closer idea of the colours as they'd appear on an actual video device. My problem is that clearly Vegas knows I'm on a monitor and seeing sRGB is misleading, as far as I can tell.

(keeping in mind that Vegas is not the culprit)

Define culprit? If you come back here I guess...

Is it too much to expect that the video I feed it, and display in my preview window will look like what I would see if I were to burn to disc and watch it on my TV?

I don't think it is, and yet I won't. The preview (on a computer monitor) will look look "washed out" (blacks are dark grey and whites are light grey), but on a TV, it looks good.

If I colour correct based on what I see, without the benefit of much, much research on the subject, I would have rubbish to view when I exported it to DVD or back to DV tape even.

It's shocking to me that I had to stumble upon the fantastic work of someone like Glenn to understand why the preview on VMS doesn't look like what I see on my TV. I can find nothing like this in the Vegas docs.

Anyway, I'm enjoying playing with my scope plug-in on VMS, gonna modify it to work with VLC also. I will post again soon, as I honestly think I misrepresented or you misunderstood, and it went downhill from there. If I do, I will use less "blaming" language and try and be more specific and hopeful get more constructive input.

"I will use less "blaming" language and try and be more specific and hopeful get more constructive input."

Based on that statement at face value, I'm going to break my word and offer one more suggestion.

Did you try unchecking "Ignore 3rd party DV codecs" and checking "Use Microsoft DV codec" in Preferences, then saving your project and re-opening it?
I covered the concept in answer 3) in my first response. Applies to capture codecs as well as rendering.

I really don't recommend MS DV because I dislike the output, and it doesn't work with Vegas captures.
But if you captured your DV in Windows Movie Maker (or another app), maybe you need it.

I just wanted to close with quotes from Glenn Chann's tutorials to make sure we both have read the same thing.Quote:

Thanks musicvid, but I don't think that's the problem. As I indicated earlier (yikes, this is a big thread now) I captured video straight from the camera into Vegas, leaving out everything non-Sony I could possibly do. So, I assume it's using the Sony DV codec. Actually, I can't even find the options you suggest, are they VMS options, or just Pro?

And that last quote, is exactly my issue. If I am using the Vegas DV codec (and I'm pretty sure I am) which goes to sRGB and displaying it in a window in Vegas, surely they would know that it will look washed out, exactly like the quote says, and it does. For someone who didn't happen to have stumbled upon Glenn's doc, they'd be correcting while looking at a bad representation. Given that the whole workflow there is all within Vegas and it's specific code, that frustrates me that they think thats 'OK'. I think we're at least seeing that same issue now.

Properly exposed, my Vegas-captured DV displayed in the VMS Platinum 10 Preview is full range, WYSIWYG, just like eight posts up. Not the least bit flat or unrepresentative, and the DVD looked great, too. My trial has since expired, so the best I can do is to try to duplicate your anomaly in Vegas Pro 8. Having been unable to do so, the best thing to do after two days may be to shake hands and move on.

Being a peer forum, we usually don't have the under-the-hood knowledge that Tech Support has. Glenn Chan is one of the few exceptions, and I have ingested his articles since day one. Without speaking for him, my experience is that if you bring 16-235 (with the right DV codec) into Vegas, it will preview 16-235. If you bring it 0-255, it will preview 0-255.

I agree, this has turned into a lengthy discussion, and opening a support ticket with Sony (possibly sending them a sample or screenshots), may be your best option.

Honestly, I tested the MS DV codec six or seven years ago, and haven't touched it since. But no question, it will spark up your preview. Despite our differences, I have wracked my brain to come up with a solution.

You mentioned VLC. I'm sure you know that all consumer players bump the levels up a notch for err, consumer reasons. Comparing their playback to Vegas' preview is not a valid test.

If you are so inclined, upload a 30 sec. clip of your original captured (not rendered) footage to MediaFire or another service. I'd be happy to have a look at it in Vegas Pro on my calibrated monitor. Btw, do you know if your system ICC profile is sRGB or something else?

My system isn't calibrated at all. I just have two computer monitors.

I think we do agree essentially though, bring in sRGB, you see sRGB in the preview. If your monitor and/or output device is calibrated for sRGB, it looks great, and essentially the same as a DVD would. But if it's just a computer window, it will look flat (as the cineform link suggested)

One thing I have found though, in VMS 10 they've fixed the bug that stopped me from using the secondary monitor dedicated to VMS. It used to force windows to resize the desktop every time the main window gained or lost focus. Now, it doesn't. When I use that, I can set the colour space to sRGB and the output looks like it does on the camera and TV, etc. This has the benefit of not modifying any renders, which is good.

This is how I understand it: if Vegas decodes sRGB, and then we look at it in a regular floating preview window, on a (calibrated or not) cRGB monitor, it will look "flat", right? Now, by flat, I mean the black in sRGB (16:16:16) will be grey in the window. To have it look accurate (as in, as close to DVD on a TV or something like that) the 16:16:16 will need to be displayed as 0:0:0, right? Technically, the 16:16:16 is accurate, but if you were to colour and/or contrast, etc. correct based on what you saw, it would not look correct when displayed on an sRGB output device. This is, as I see it, consistent with what both Glenn said (from your quote there) as well as what the cineform link stated.

Is there anything wrong with the above?

That is close enough for practical understanding of the relationships. However, instead of saying “the 16:16:16 will need to be displayed as 0:0:0,” I think it is more accurate to say “displayed in a 16-235 space.” That is for the benefit of conventional television where <16 and >235 don't exist.

To me, the problem with setting up a main editing preview device that way is that in this stage of the game 16 and 235 are not hard limits, but signposts. Any good shooter will use 1-15 and 236-254 as undershoot/overshoot room to get everything (except outlying speculars) on tape, so the editor can make the decisions later.

So I want everything to show on my preview in full range; including everything from lower threshold to 15, and everything from 236 to upper threshold. I don't care if it looks a bit flat at this stage. If I clamp it to 16-235 just now, my task of fine-tuning levels has become much more difficult. So I tweak and play, and do it again until the shadow and highlight detail I want to keep "just" stays in bounds, at the understood collateral of contrast or "snap." Then I give the gamma a final tweak, and that is an art that can take years to learn. The video scopes are the biggest non-subjective tool in this workflow, so I hope your VMS plugin is something others may eventually able to use.



Yes, I use the secondary preview at 16-235 occasionally to check myself. But my primary guess-and-check tool is a DVD-RW disc. I am not only interested how the levels look on my home entertainment system, as a music producer I am very picky about my 5.1 surround mix. On a given project, I may tweak my video levels once or twice, and my audio a dozen different times.

Once I send it to render, I know what will be hard clamped downstream, so my playback expectations are realized (not all the time). The problems, of course, of using uncalibrated monitors and TV sets is that there is not another set like that anywhere. And how close you are to the consensus (ITU calibration) is unknown. Knowing the wide variety of consumer playback modes on both DVD players and TV sets (most of them ridiculous), I couldn’t possibly hope to accommodate all of them, since there is no consensus beyond ITU-R 601/709.

As an analogy, I can mix audio CDs that sound great on my home system. But without some frame of reference, I'm just about guaranteeing that they will not sound that great on anyone else's setup. For this, the tools I use my ears, some classic rock albums, spectrum analysis, peak and RMS level measurements.

I wanted to mention that even though I have probably been the worst offender of this, Studio RGB and sRGB are not the same thing. sRGB is an ICC profile, originally designed for better screen->print color matching. Although "based" on ITU-R 601, sRGB is not a color space. Although I have used ICC profiles in Photoshop as long as I can remember, I still tend to abbreviate Studio RGB incorrectly, as has been pointed out more times than I care to mention.

Here is an alternate workflow to setting Studio RGB levels using the primary preview in Vegas Movie Studio without the benefit of Scopes. Barely tested, use at your own risk.

1) Set your Project Properties to "Match Media Settings."
2) Turn off all Preview enhancements.
3) Open the Levels plugin.
4) Adjust the Input Start for the shadow detail level in the Preview you "just" want to see in playback.
5) Adjust the Input End for the highlight detail level in the Preview you "just" want to see in playback (You'll probably want to leave this at 1 unless the video is underexposed).
6) Adjust the gamma very slightly, if at all to set the midtone levels (for experts and fools only).
7) Subtract 0.063 from the Input Start level and enter the total in the numeric box. If the total is <0, set the Input Start at 0 and Add the difference to the Output Start.
8) Add 0.078 to the Input End level and enter the total in the numeric box. If the total is >1, set the Input End to 1, and Subtract the difference from the Output End. You should be good to go.
--Don't attempt to shortcut the process by setting both Input / Output levels away from their defaults simultaneously or by stacking Levels plugins. The result will be adding noise unnecessarily to the render.

I came up with this workflow as an afterthought to the lack of scopes in VMS.

That is close enough for practical understanding of the relationships. However, instead of saying “the 16:16:16 will need to be displayed as 0:0:0,” I think it is more accurate to say “displayed in a 16-235 space.” That is for the benefit of conventional television where <16 and >235 don't exist.

It was my understand that the ICC/M was essentially a LUT, so 16:16:16 would 'map' to 0:0:0, but you're absolutely right. "Displaying it there" is what I technically mean, which is what I get when I apply an sRGB profile to the full-screen secondary display.

I think one of the things I mis-implied at the onset, was that I felt the <16 and >239 (which I think it actually is) are worthless and should be discarded. I didn't expect, or want, Vegas to destroy that data, I just don't understand why the didn't include some basic functionality to "display it in sRGB space" in a windowed environment on a computer monitor, which definitely wouldn't be sRGB.

I appreciate the effort you put into the workflow description, but I did just find it easier to drop the sRGB->cRGB on the preview window, or apply the ICM to the full-screen display. That preserves the integrity of the of the source, but also lets me see it like a DVD would show it. The colour profile in full-screen option has the added benefit that it won't affect the rendering output.

It still seems like a crazy amount of digging and info gathering was required to figure out why black looked grey in my VMS preview. And what you suggest I'm sure would work, but really does seem like a hammer to change a light bulb, who would imagine to do all that at first? Maybe Sony figure everyone has a DV preview device and then everything would look great out of the chute.