Grazie,

You never said what encoder you are using. If you are using the external Mainconcept encoder, then you must check "Click on "Input video is RGB16-235." The reasons for this were given by others in earlier posts. Basically, DV already has clipped the blacks and whites to get within legal limits, and you don't want the encoder to do it again. Having the encoder do this is the usual reason for "washed out" video (I just forgot to do it on a nine hour encode using TMPGEnc -- which I still have to use for some projects -- so I know what washed out video looks like). If you set this correctly, you should not be able to detect any difference whatsoever between the contrast and color of the original and you encoded MPEG2 file.

If you use DVDA to encode the file, I don't think you can change any MPEG2 parameters whatsoever (other than bitrate). This is a good reason not to encode in DVDA, but instead encode in Vegas.

If you use Vegas to encode the file, it assumes that you are using DV AVI files, so the encode should be correct. However, if you start with something other than DV AVI, Vegas doesn't appear to provide the 16-235 control that is available in the standalone MainConcept MPEG encoder and in the TMPGEnc encoder, so you could have problems. I am surprised, since Vegas supports many input formats, that this control is not available (perhaps I am overlooking something).

Older versions of Vegas and DVDA didn't set this value correctly (it was fixed in Vegas 4.0c, I believe):

What is "MPEG level clamping" problem?

John,
as far as I know DV has NOT clipped the levels to get within legal limits.
I could easily be wrong of course, but I've always been told that one of the problems with DV is how easily you can get outside legal. Maybe I've been given a lot bum steers on this, would love to hear otherwise.

With Vegas 5.0a and NTSC DV video, when I encode using the Vegas Mainconcept encoder, it handles the 16-235 issue correctly. I cannot vouch for PAL.

Grazie,
Did you get a chance to try my suggestions over the weekend? I am really curious.

John

craftech - quick answer .. no! Longer answer, spent the weekend by the sea getting "another" view on life with my newly acquired circular plorarizer filter.. . Today went to see a client . . .tomorrow I'll have more opportunity to experiment . . please don't think I'm ungrateful - MY WORDS not yours - I've got a fair bit on my plate at present . . I like what JM suggested too!

Okay - Grazie

Not at all Grazie,
I am mostly curius and anxious to help, nothing more. We all learn when we get feedback. Take your time and do it whenever you have a chance.
Regards,
John

Created a DVD of Vegas PAL test patterns as follows:
SMPTE Bars
Ramp
Pluge
100% White
100% Black

Checking these on the scope prior to and after encoding they look as expected.
Playing the DVD back into ADVC-300 and capturing output results are quite interesting.
The original Ramp goes from 16 to 228.
The encoded mpeg shows the same values with slight bleed below 16.
The replayed DVD gives 4 to 218.

The original 100% (Super) black is at 0.
Encoded mpeg is also at 0
Played back from DVD reads 16.

Pluge is the most interesting as you can clearly see what is happening:

Both original and encoded video looks very much the same.
However coming out of the player not only has the upper and lower limits been shifted but internediate vlaues have been remapped accross the range. Peak values that were at 124 are now at 109.

This is a far from scientific experiment. I have no external proof that the AVDC-300 hasn't played with the levels however I have good reason to suspect that it doesn't. Still to be 100% certain I'll need either a hardware waveform monitor or a TPG, neither of those are cheap kit or easily borrowd, at least not ones I can be 100% certain are calibrated against reference standards.
I should mention that the feed from the DVD player to ADVC-300 is composite, S-Video may yield a different result although I doubt it.
So far what does this show, well it would seem the mpeg encoder encodes what its given. The issue is the DVD player 'legalising' the video. Pretty much what I'd suspected goes on.
All this was done using Vegas 5 and DVDA 2.

farss,

I think everything is as expected, although I'm a computer guy -- one of the video gurus needs to speak up.

Playing the DVD back into ADVC-300 and capturing output results are quite interesting.

This makes sense to me. Once the signal is converted into the analog domain (by your DVD player) the IRE setup is added. Your ADVC-300 then re-encodes this video.

Try this link and see if it helps or confuses the issue:

Setup

Again, I am on the edge of my expertise here, and someone with better video experience needs to chime in.

John,
this isn't a setup issue, in PAL there's no setup. For lack of a better explaination the player is compressing the dynamic range of the video. You are right though, it should do that else the TV could go wobbly. Probably on the RGB/YUV component outputs it wouldn't do that.
This ties in nicely with what Sony said some time ago about the need to legalise video, doesn't matter if going to DVD, does matter if going to tape and it also explains nicely what Grazie was complaining about in the first place.
Now what is interesting is that it would seem not to be a simple level clamp, it's shifting all the values. I think that means even video which is legal is going to get squashed making it look darker. The way around it then is, as has been suggested, to wind the gamma up in the first place to compensate.

Bob.

I did say ONE of the reasons. Certainly there's many technical reasons why 35mm is a superior format to video. You could add higher resolution as well.

Yes, film has higher spatial resolution, but less than half the temporal resolution of video. (See my recent response to the post entitled "Progressive scan questions." I'm wearing my Nomex flame suit just in case.)

John

John,
I'm on your side, why does everyone think that LESS temporal res is better. Then again you can run film cameras at just about whatever frame rate you want, trying to project it at that rate is a bit of problem though, still the only way to get decent slo mo.

Didn't catch this thread until I just made a new version of my reel with DVDA 2. The old version was done in DVDA 1. Gotta say, before even seeing this thread I thought it looked a little more flat, less saturated than the previous version ... even though the source material is the same, TV's the same, everything but DVDA 2 is the same. I have nothing to add but G, your not alone, just thought I might be imagining things till I saw your thread.

- Ray

www.undergroundplanet.com

Thanks Mutts - The Lads here have been very supportative . .. some of the tech stuff has been, well, over my head . .and at the same time very educational. I'm looking for a "simple" solution to this so I can "fix" what happens - I'm hoping there isn't a TV-engineer-needed-solution in the offing . . .

Gentlemen, I'm still reading your feedback and waiting to see where this will finally leads us ..

Grazie

Well from what I can see, Vegas and the MC encoder are doing the right thing. If the encoded mpeg is the same but the DVD players adjust the levels, who ya gonna call?
When I get a chance I'll repeat my tests but print the test patterns to DV and VHS. I'll bet the results are different, I'll see much the same levels coming off tape as what I saw in Vegas.
Best solution if you want to get things on DV and DVD to look the same: When you PTT, legalise, when you encode to DVD don't, the player will take care of that.
BTW this isn't the only place I've seen complaints about DVDs looking 'dull' compared to VHS etc. At the time I just thought it was people with cheap kit and clueless to boot. Seems to confirm that this isn't a Vegas / MC / DVDA issue.

Thanks farss - Do I fall into this group:"At the time I just thought it was people with cheap kit and clueless to boot. " - So I am doing something wrong or not? .. .

Still around - Grazie

I'm looking for a "simple" solution to this so I can "fix" what happens - I'm hoping there isn't a TV-engineer-needed-solution in the offing . . .
==============
So:
Try my suggestion with a loop render of color corrected sections that have the same lighting. In other words, split a representatively lit scene having the same camera exposure into smaller sections of say 10-15 seconds each or longer depending upon how much footage you have to play with. Color correct using the eyedroppers to set the black and white points. Number the clips to do gamma adjustments, starting with 950 and working your way down in increments of 50. I have gone as low as 750 with certain scenes.
Loop render, author, and burn it onto a DVD/RW and play it on a bunch of different DVD players, then see for yourself. If the contrast is nice and the colors are good, but you still want more color, do the same thing using the saturation slider and raise it VERY little at a time.

John

Grazie,
NO, NO, NO and NO. I was referring to things I'd read elsewhere, to be specific I think it was over at dvdhelp.com, mostly from people turning off air stuff into DVDs using, well wet string or something like that :)

John,
while I'd agree with your suggestion for getting a good looking DVD I think the core issue here is trying to get the video to look the same whether it is played out from DV, VHS or DVD, differences in resolution not withstanding. While you're addressing the issue of how to make the DVD version look fine I don't know if you printed the same video out to tape and played that back into the same TV if you'd see the same thing, based on my research.

Bob.

Grazie,

What was the end result of all this?

John