Consufed: Frame Level Editing,Timeline, Quantize & Pixel Shifting

ZippyGaloo wrote on 7/31/2003, 7:51 PM

This has been driving me bonkers for days. Hopefully someone will know what I'm talking about, explain it to me and stop the madness developing inside me.

Ok, I'm going to pick a random spot on my timeline: 00:03:02:00

According to people in this forum, if I hold down the alt key and press the up arrow key it should zoom me in on the timeline to a point where each hash mark now represents one frame (holding the alt key should keep me from zooming in closer than one frame per hash mark). The problem is at this point each hash mark is NOT one frame each, but rather some odd number of frames around 12 or so. If I have "grid marks showing", then each grid mark represents TWO frames, but this still isn't ONE FRAME PER HASH OR GRID MARK! (Would be nice to have a keyboard shortcut or toolbar button to automatically take you to a zoom level that represents one frame per hash or grid mark! Are you listening SOFO or SONY or whoever?).

Now, I DO realize that at this point (or any zoom level) I can use F3 and F9 keys to move the cursor one frame at a time, and the numberpad keys 1 and 3 to move the selection one frame at a time. But, what sucks at this zoom level (at any zoom level actually) is that my cursor doesn't line up directly on hash marks or grid marks!

Both from what I visually see on my computer at this point and if I zoom in closer than the alt+up arrow allows me (i.e. all the way in) the cursor isn't actually on a hash mark! It's actually left of the 00:03:02:01 hash mark and very right of the 00:03:02:00. Now what confuses me is that if I have "Quantize to Frames" disabled, I am able to drag my selection anywhere between 00:03:02:00 and 00:03:02:01 which is some sort of sub frame edit I guess, but none the less it will leave gaps in my timeline! It just seems like it will create problems! Now I realize if I enable "Quantize to Frames" it will keep me from dragging my selection some point in between as described above. But what if I forget to enable or mistakenly disable "Quantize to Frames"?

1. How do I fix all of these cursor,timeline,hash marks, grid marks, quantize to frames issues?
2. Will these gaps created by sub-frame edits actually effect my project?
3. What is the point of this sub frame level editing?
4. Why do the numbers across the top of my timeline (the ones representing the "time at cursor") start off say ending in :23 (ie.- 00:03:03:23) and then gradually decrease further down the timeline (ie. - 00:03:05:22) and then further down (00::03:06:21) instead of staying consistent?
5. What's the point of pixel shifting your selections?

Basically the whole Timeline, Hash Marks, Grid Marks, and Quantize To Frames confuses me!

Comments

BillyBoy wrote on 7/31/2003, 11:20 PM

How accurate the hash marks are is relative to your zoom level. You can display the frame number below the preview window. Holding down the Atl key while clicking either the left or right keyboard arrow keys will take you one frame in either direction. Don't obsess about the hash marks.

You can change how the time is shown above the timeline. Check under 'time' in the Vegas help system for descriptions of the many options.

Your other questions are explained in the help system as well. Keep in mind that Vegas is a complex software package. It can do many common tasks in a variety of ways. Reading the manual (a 300 page plus PRF file) and browsing the online help system will pay dividends in the long run and is time well spent. There is also a printed manual you can purchase. So far two there is one book by a forum contributor, and two different DVD sets. The best teacher is EXPERIENCE. I'm still learning new things and I've used Vegas for about two years so far. Vegas is an amazingly good application. The more you use it, the more you'll learn how to better use it.

TheHappyFriar wrote on 7/31/2003, 11:31 PM

Ok, I'll try to help.
1) I opened up a new project and plopped some video in there. I hold the left ALT key down and then held the UP arrow down (on the arrow pad, NOT the keypad). Vegas zoomed in until each BIG hash mark was 1 frame. However, at each big hash there was a light gray verticle line from the hash to the bottom of the timeline. Also, when I would move +-1 frame, i wouldn't move sub-frame (enable snapping and quantize to frames are both enabled). You might not of been zoomed in all the way (with the ALT key down. Also works with ALT+mouse scroll).

2) The gaps WILL NOT effect your project if you have a video frame no more then 1 frame appart (ie a video ends at 00:01:05:01 and the next starts at 00:01:05:02. Will be OK). This is because when you render/playback it will only render/display video on each frame, not the inbetweens.

3) Audio. I'v done audio editing in vegas that would normaly require a copy of Sounf Forge. Try editing audio in Premiere.

4) You aren't zoomed in all the way and/or you aren't using Drop frame timecode. To change this right click on the time bar above your video/audio layers and select "SMPTE Drop."

5)What's "pixel shifting?" Sound like someting ATI or nVidia brag about.

ZippyGaloo wrote on 8/1/2003, 12:38 AM

BillyBoy & Happy Friar (below),

Specifically to BillyBoy:

I've been reading the manual and hanging around this forum (and others) in an effort to REALLY LEARN Vegas. Much to learn!

You are correct in saying that I wasn't zoomed in correctly, but it must be some sort of bug in the program or some other unexplainable that caused the alt+up arrow to not work correctly last time I had my project open. It's a few hours later and I've opened up my project and it does in fact zoom into one frame differences between hash marks. NOTE: Both F3 & F9 and the left & right keyboard arrow keys will move exactly +- 1 frame UNLESS the "Quantize to Frames" has been disabled in which case only the F3 & F9 keys work and the left & right arrows keys only move +- 1 pixel. Holding the Alt key while pressing the right or left arrow keys wasn't needed to move 1 frame under these conditions. Is there a reason for that?

There's that stupid "Quantize to Frames" thing that still I know nothing about!

Specifically to Happy Friar:

When the timeline is correctly zoomed in so there is only 1 frame between hash marks Vegas will not allow me to drag a clip sub-frame UNLESS the "Quantize to Frames" has be disabled! If "Quantize to Frames" has been disabled then Vegas WILL allow me to drag a clip sub-frame. I don't like that!

Again! There's that stupid "Quantize to Frames" thing that still I know nothing about!

Are you sure that the gaps WILL NOT affect my final project? My timeline shows a one frame gap. [For instance with your example: 00:01:05:01 - 00:01:05:02; if one clip ends at 00:01:05:01 and the next clip starts at 00:01:05:02, there is a one frame blank in my project (between those clips)]. Why is that gap even made possible?

I am zoomed in all the way. I'm editing a 24P project [template NTSC DV 24P (720x480 23.976 fps)] with my time display format running at SMPTE Film Sync IVTC 23.976 fps Video). I shot 24pA (3-2-2-3 pulldown) and am editing according to Sonic Foundry's 24p whitepaper.

By "Pixel Shift" I meant being able to move the clip 1 pixel right or left with the numberpad's 4 & 6 keys AND "Quantize to Frames" disabled. (with "Quantize to Frames" enabled the 4 & 6 keys move the clip 1 frame right or left)

For the third and final time! There's that stupid "Quantize to Frames" thing that still I know nothing about!

Grazie wrote on 8/1/2003, 1:03 AM

Have you downloaded the manual?

Just looked up "Quantize to Frame" in it's Glossary: "Quantizing (Video) Limiting all editing to frame boundaries" - there is then a reference to page 87 of the manual which describes Snapping to Frames and Quantizing.

Regards,

Grazie

PeterWright wrote on 8/1/2003, 1:07 AM

Quantize to frames is something that should be on by default for editing video, as the basic units are frames so there is no use in going in between. It will mean any event movements or dragged edges will always stop at a whole frame, never at a "frame and a bit".

For audio, however, the basic unit is a sample, and Vegas allows users to switch Quantize to frames off so they can get right in to this level for accurate audio editing.

Probably the reason that your previous Alt/Up arrow didn't take you to whole frames was that you didn't wait long enough - alt/up zooms in, but stops when it gets to whole frames. You must have stopped before it reached this far.

farss wrote on 8/1/2003, 6:59 AM

ZippGaloo,
perhaps if I just try to focus on one particular question:

"Why can I edit at sub frame level?"

To those of us who know VV thats a bit like complaining that your car doesn't use enough fuel.

In a nutshell, because VV is also an audio editor and mixer as well. Ever tried editing audio in one frame increments?

One of the reasons I bought VV was because I could edit out less than one frame of audio. When you do that VV has to display whats happened somehow so it leaves a small gap in the video track.

If you never need this don't panic, just don't turn off Quantize To Frames and all will be well.

BillyBoy wrote on 8/1/2003, 9:40 AM

In a nutshsell as others already said, unless you're a fanantic about editing the audio portion don't sweat the quantize feature.

Grazie wrote on 8/1/2003, 9:55 AM

Ah HAH! - SO that is why when I place markers on/to the beat I can't sometimes get the exact sound to appear with a quick video piece - Now I understand. Fanatic! Nah BB. Another piece for my Knowledge Base fits in . . . Thanks Farss! Brilliant!

Grazie