Peter, These were recorded with a Gadgetlabs 8/24, which is only 24
bit. But CEP stores them as 32 bit files (last 8 digits are 0). They
were saved as .wav files. Vegas brings them in, but can't display
them properly or play them back.

I'm assuming I need to convert them. I suspect CEP will let me
convert them, but I don't know what to convert them to.

Thanks,

Mike


Peter Haller wrote:
>>We support 8, 16, 24 bit depths and sample rates upto 96kHz. We also
>>permit import of floating point files.
>>
>>Q: What hardware are you recording these with - I mean, what
>>hardware/converts are out there that sample with 32 bit precision?
>>
>>Peter
>>
>>
>>Mike McGee wrote:
>>>>CEP files recorded at 44.1/32 won't play back in Vegas.
>>>>
>>>>What format should these be converted to?
>>>>
>>>>MM

Mike,

This seems pretty obvious but maybe I'm missing something -
you need to "convert" a.k.a. dither them down to 24 bit files.

Are you recording at 32 bit just becuase you can or do you have some
unusual reason to work at such a high bit rate? IMO, anything above
24 bit is just more work for your PC. As I think Peter is alluding
to, no hardware out there even comes close to truly supporting this -
never mind that human hearing tops out under 24 bit.

my 2 cents.

Paul

Convert them to a max of 24/96 as you require. Vegas will deal with
them correctly then. It does appear that 1) the 32 bit files are
"different" than Vegas expects or 2) Vegas is interpreting the files
wrong. I am looking into this.

I am not up on my CEP, but I would assume that CEP allows you to
specify what format the recorded files are saved as. Record as 24
bit. I would also assume that CEP lets you "Save as" to any number of
formats, so you could convert there.

Peter

Mike McGee wrote:
>>Peter, These were recorded with a Gadgetlabs 8/24, which is only 24
>>bit. But CEP stores them as 32 bit files (last 8 digits are 0).
They
>>were saved as .wav files. Vegas brings them in, but can't display
>>them properly or play them back.
>>
>>I'm assuming I need to convert them. I suspect CEP will let me
>>convert them, but I don't know what to convert them to.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>
>>Peter Haller wrote:
>>>>We support 8, 16, 24 bit depths and sample rates upto 96kHz. We
also
>>>>permit import of floating point files.
>>>>
>>>>Q: What hardware are you recording these with - I mean, what
>>>>hardware/converts are out there that sample with 32 bit precision?
>>>>
>>>>Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Mike McGee wrote:
>>>>>>CEP files recorded at 44.1/32 won't play back in Vegas.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>What format should these be converted to?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>MM

I'm not making myself clear. They are 24 bit files because that's all
that the Gadgetlabs 8/24 can record. But apparently the format in
which CEP stores them is not compatible with what vegas is expecting.

When you record in CEP, your choices are 16 bit or 32 bit. If the
hardware passes 24, then the last 8 lsb's are 0. CEP still stores
them as 32 bit files. Vegas does not like this. But what does it
like / expect?

For example, 24 bit packed vs unpacked? Maybe CEP isn't following a
microsoft protocol that vegas is expecting?

I was hoping someone on the list might know what to convert them to.
I'll see if CEP allows a bit conversion from 32 to 24, and try that.

F. Paul Lembo III wrote:
>>Mike,
>>
>>This seems pretty obvious but maybe I'm missing something -
>>you need to "convert" a.k.a. dither them down to 24 bit files.
>>
>>Are you recording at 32 bit just becuase you can or do you have some
>>unusual reason to work at such a high bit rate? IMO, anything above
>>24 bit is just more work for your PC. As I think Peter is alluding
>>to, no hardware out there even comes close to truly supporting this
-
>>never mind that human hearing tops out under 24 bit.
>>
>>my 2 cents.
>>
>>Paul
>>

According to the Nyquist Theorem it is the "sampling rate" (44.1K,
48K, 96K, etc)that has a direct relationship to the frequency
response, not the number of "bits".

Simple explanation at: http://www.opus1.com/~violist/help/nyquist.html

FWIW :)

KAC ...


F. Paul Lembo III wrote:

>>never mind that human hearing tops out under 24 bit.

Peter, I think I've solved it.

CEP has 6 different options for saving a 24 bit file. But they are all
saved as 32 bit files. The option that worked in vegas was "32 bit
integer" format in CEP. This imported in to vegas correctly,
displayed correctly, and played correctly. Thanks for your ideas.

Mike McGee

Peter Haller wrote:
>>Convert them to a max of 24/96 as you require. Vegas will deal with
>>them correctly then. It does appear that 1) the 32 bit files are
>>"different" than Vegas expects or 2) Vegas is interpreting the files
>>wrong. I am looking into this.
>>
>>I am not up on my CEP, but I would assume that CEP allows you to
>>specify what format the recorded files are saved as. Record as 24
>>bit. I would also assume that CEP lets you "Save as" to any number
of
>>formats, so you could convert there.
>>
>>Peter
>>
>>Mike McGee wrote:
>>>>Peter, These were recorded with a Gadgetlabs 8/24, which is only
24
>>>>bit. But CEP stores them as 32 bit files (last 8 digits are 0).
>>They
>>>>were saved as .wav files. Vegas brings them in, but can't display
>>>>them properly or play them back.
>>>>
>>>>I'm assuming I need to convert them. I suspect CEP will let me
>>>>convert them, but I don't know what to convert them to.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>
>>>>Mike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Peter Haller wrote:
>>>>>>We support 8, 16, 24 bit depths and sample rates upto 96kHz. We
>>also
>>>>>>permit import of floating point files.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Q: What hardware are you recording these with - I mean, what
>>>>>>hardware/converts are out there that sample with 32 bit
precision?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Peter
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Mike McGee wrote:
>>>>>>>>CEP files recorded at 44.1/32 won't play back in Vegas.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>What format should these be converted to?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>MM

Karl,

Thanks for the link on the Nyquist Theorem, it was good reading.

I'm not exactly clear on your point in relationship to what I was
saying. I'm aware of the difference between bit rate and sampling
rate and the role they play in sound quality. The point I was
attempting to make, perhaps poorly, was that recording at 32 bit is a
waste of resources with the technology of the present day. Rightly or
wrongly I was / am ignoring the sapling rate part of the equation.

I can hear the difference between 16 bit and 20 bit recording, mixing
and mastering. Anyone who has used an old DAT and a new DAT (and
doesn't have fried ears) would probably agree. However, after many
hours of recording and mixing with that very same sound card, the
Wave 8, and the same softare - CEP and Vegas, I can hear no
difference between 24 bit and 32 bit recording rates. I know sampling
rate plays a role as well, but asking your hard drive to swallow
those extra relevant digits at 32 bit - only to chop them or dither
them later for a gold master doesn't make sense to me.

On that point would you agree or not?

regards,

Paul



Karl Caillouet wrote:
>>According to the Nyquist Theorem it is the "sampling rate" (44.1K,
>>48K, 96K, etc)that has a direct relationship to the frequency
>>response, not the number of "bits".
>>
>>Simple explanation at:
http://www.opus1.com/~violist/help/nyquist.html
>>
>>FWIW :)
>>
>>KAC ...
>>
>>
>>F. Paul Lembo III wrote:
>>
>>>>never mind that human hearing tops out under 24 bit.

Yep.

What version of CEP are you running?

Peter




Mike McGee wrote:
>>Peter, I think I've solved it.
>>
>>CEP has 6 different options for saving a 24 bit file. But they are
all
>>saved as 32 bit files. The option that worked in vegas was "32 bit
>>integer" format in CEP. This imported in to vegas correctly,
>>displayed correctly, and played correctly. Thanks for your ideas.
>>
>>Mike McGee
>>
>>Peter Haller wrote:
>>>>Convert them to a max of 24/96 as you require. Vegas will deal
with
>>>>them correctly then. It does appear that 1) the 32 bit files are
>>>>"different" than Vegas expects or 2) Vegas is interpreting the
files
>>>>wrong. I am looking into this.
>>>>
>>>>I am not up on my CEP, but I would assume that CEP allows you to
>>>>specify what format the recorded files are saved as. Record as 24
>>>>bit. I would also assume that CEP lets you "Save as" to any
number
>>of
>>>>formats, so you could convert there.
>>>>
>>>>Peter
>>>>
>>>>Mike McGee wrote:
>>>>>>Peter, These were recorded with a Gadgetlabs 8/24, which is
only
>>24
>>>>>>bit. But CEP stores them as 32 bit files (last 8 digits are
0).
>>>>They
>>>>>>were saved as .wav files. Vegas brings them in, but can't
display
>>>>>>them properly or play them back.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'm assuming I need to convert them. I suspect CEP will let me
>>>>>>convert them, but I don't know what to convert them to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Peter Haller wrote:
>>>>>>>>We support 8, 16, 24 bit depths and sample rates upto 96kHz.
We
>>>>also
>>>>>>>>permit import of floating point files.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Q: What hardware are you recording these with - I mean, what
>>>>>>>>hardware/converts are out there that sample with 32 bit
>>precision?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Peter
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Mike McGee wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>CEP files recorded at 44.1/32 won't play back in Vegas.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>What format should these be converted to?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>MM

Hi Paul,

I agree with you wholeheartedly!

I totally misunderstood what you meant when you said "human hearing
tops out under 24 bit" ... my apologies.

Mea culpa. :)

Many folks think that since you can't hear above 18-20K, you don't
need the frequencies above that in your music. CD's sound pretty
awful to me when compared to my analog mixes of the same material
because they do hit a frequency response ceiling at approximately 22K.

The 96Khz stuff I've heard sounds more like what I am used to hearing
from our analog decks mainly because the increased frequency
response - up to roughly 48Khz (Nyquist Theorem) - is pretty close to
what the analog decks themselves reproduce.

Downside is that I've heard that some mastering engineers are cutting
everything above 22Khz on 96Khz stuff anyway because of high
frequency artifacts that you can't hear that can make some amplifiers
click and pop ... so why bother with 96Khz at this point?

Sorry about the misunderstanding ... you are definitely correct, IMO,
about the waste of resources at this stage of the game.

Regards,
KAC ...


F. Paul Lembo III wrote:

>>I'm not exactly clear on your point in relationship to what I was
>>saying. I'm aware of the difference between bit rate and sampling
>>rate and the role they play in sound quality. The point I was
>>attempting to make, perhaps poorly, was that recording at 32 bit is
>>a waste of resources with the technology of the present day.

Karl,

No need to apologize! I agree with you about the high frequency loss
to CD as well. So far everything I've had mastered has been done at
really small shops so they'll leave in those "dangerous" frequencies.

Thanks for the info about 1.0a as well. After life with Cubase for so
long I'm a little gun shy about updates.

I'm running CEP 1.2

Peter Haller wrote:
>>Yep.
>>
>>What version of CEP are you running?
>>
>>Peter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Mike McGee wrote:
>>>>Peter, I think I've solved it.
>>>>
>>>>CEP has 6 different options for saving a 24 bit file. But they are
>>all
>>>>saved as 32 bit files. The option that worked in vegas was "32
bit
>>>>integer" format in CEP. This imported in to vegas correctly,
>>>>displayed correctly, and played correctly. Thanks for your ideas.
>>>>
>>>>Mike McGee
>>>>
>>>>Peter Haller wrote:
>>>>>>Convert them to a max of 24/96 as you require. Vegas will deal
>>with
>>>>>>them correctly then. It does appear that 1) the 32 bit files are
>>>>>>"different" than Vegas expects or 2) Vegas is interpreting the
>>files
>>>>>>wrong. I am looking into this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I am not up on my CEP, but I would assume that CEP allows you to
>>>>>>specify what format the recorded files are saved as. Record as
24
>>>>>>bit. I would also assume that CEP lets you "Save as" to any
>>number
>>>>of
>>>>>>formats, so you could convert there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Peter
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Mike McGee wrote:
>>>>>>>>Peter, These were recorded with a Gadgetlabs 8/24, which is
>>only
>>>>24
>>>>>>>>bit. But CEP stores them as 32 bit files (last 8 digits are
>>0).
>>>>>>They
>>>>>>>>were saved as .wav files. Vegas brings them in, but can't
>>display
>>>>>>>>them properly or play them back.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I'm assuming I need to convert them. I suspect CEP will let
me
>>>>>>>>convert them, but I don't know what to convert them to.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Mike
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Peter Haller wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>We support 8, 16, 24 bit depths and sample rates upto 96kHz.
>>We
>>>>>>also
>>>>>>>>>>permit import of floating point files.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Q: What hardware are you recording these with - I mean, what
>>>>>>>>>>hardware/converts are out there that sample with 32 bit
>>>>precision?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Peter
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Mike McGee wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>CEP files recorded at 44.1/32 won't play back in Vegas.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>What format should these be converted to?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>MM

WOW.

I'd really like to see these analog tape decks that are reproducing
flat responses up to 48 kHz. Haven't you guys heard of extinction
frequencies???

Further, Paul : what do you mean when you write "leave in
those 'dangerous' frequencies"?

Hard filtering causes alias ringing in digital audio. Yes. This is
why so many early digital machines sounded harsh. Cure: oversampling,
gentle slope filter.

Higher frequency sampling gives psychoacoustic benefits as well as
allowing harmonic replication and interaction lower down the
frequency chain. Which freqencies are dangerous???

Donald MacDonald
Audio Supervisor
BBC Birmingham




F. Paul Lembo III wrote:
>>Karl,
>>
>>No need to apologize! I agree with you about the high frequency
loss
>>to CD as well. So far everything I've had mastered has been done at
>>really small shops so they'll leave in those "dangerous"
frequencies.
>>
>>Thanks for the info about 1.0a as well. After life with Cubase for
so
>>long I'm a little gun shy about updates.
>>
>>

Donald MacDonald wrote:
>>WOW.
>>
>>I'd really like to see these analog tape decks that are reproducing
>>flat responses up to 48 kHz. Haven't you guys heard of extinction
>>frequencies???

Hi Donald,

?? ... Reading back through the thread I see absolutely NO mention of
reproducing "flat" responses up to 48 KHz on any equipment. :)

Nonetheless, it is not at all unusual for our well maintained and
properly aligned analog decks to be relatively "flat" up to 35 kHz,
and some even higher ... far above any digital frequency response
with the common sampling rates today. As far as the ability to record
such high frequencies on analog tape, the bias tone on analog tape is
typically in the 100 kHz range.

>>
>>Further, Paul : what do you mean when you write "leave in
>>those 'dangerous' frequencies"?

I can't speak for Paul, but I know for a fact that ultrasonic
transients can be introduced into mixes as the result of a number
of issues, including the harmonic content of the music itself and
equipment circuits ... a la EQ. These ultrasonic transients typically
go undetected without test equipment for the obvious reason that they
are "ultrasonic". They can, however, become evident as clicks or pops
when played back through some cheaper amplifier circuits that can't
react fast enough to the voltage change.

I took this to be what Paul meant as "dangerous" ... for they are,
for all practical purposes, "dangerous" to your project because they
won't usually be detected under normal monitoring cirucumstances in
the studio.

>>Higher frequency sampling gives psychoacoustic benefits as well as
>>allowing harmonic replication and interaction lower down the
>>frequency chain.

Precisely my point ... and one GOOD reason why some of us old fart
engineers can still make a living in this business even though we may
not be able to actually hear the 18-22kHz range!

KAC ...