Copyright ruling/CleanFlicks, etc

Comments

Jayster wrote on 7/14/2006, 12:30 PM
Most countries have a significantly lower murder and rape ratio than the US, and in most countries, it's very common to see advertisements with topless women, late night adult content on public television, etc.

Having been to many such countries and had lots of friends from there and heard their attitudes, I also know that infidelity is also a lot more common and, to some extent, far less rejected by society. (Yeah, we have this problem in USA too, but debatably to a lesser extent.)

My real point here is that sweeping generalizations about the consequences of repressing or embracing nudity and sexuality in the public forum are hard to substantiate. In these matters perhaps the biggest danger lies in the extremes on either side of the issue.

America is the onyl country where sex is seen as obscene. The religious right seem to think they can dictate what we do with our bodies and our minds.

Have open sex in the public square of a big city in any country, and see if you still think only America finds it to be obscene!

That was not a serious statement on my part. Just a gross exaggeration. Compared to some countries I've been to, sex is rampant in the American cinema, cable TV, and in the choice of clothes that women wear. I would hardly agree that it is considered obscene. We don't have the Taliban running around telling our women to get off the streets. (We do have plenty of wannabee extremists here, though).

Profanity, nudity, sex, and violence are the mud of society. It's unreasonable to believe that continued, unfettered exposure to profanity, nudity, sex, and violence has no negative effects on people (numerous studies over the years have shown otherwise). We can’t roll around in the mud without getting dirty.

Jay_Gladwell, you've made some very interesting discussion with a lot of good points in it. In many ways I find myself agreeing.

Question is, what's the alternative? I know you're not saying things should go this way, but what if you have a Taliban-like force running around slicing up leather jackets on the backs of people because they are deemed "sinful"? What if Math and Science get replaced in schools (because they lead to western modernization) and religious anti-sin hate rhetoric takes its place? Sometimes the fervor of stamping out sin becomes worse than the sin it seeks to remove. It can drive a society back into the stone age.

I'm not suggesting that you are advocating anything like that. What I am suggesting is that it's hard to find an alternative to free expression that doesn't have its own consequences. I'm not trying to "play both sides against the middle" either. What I am really saying is that extremes don't work. And I am beyond baffled as to what's the best solution (if there is one), other than discretion and judgement on the part of parents.

But I think we can all agree (or most of us) that an artist's copyrights should be enforced. That's probably the only issue we can comment on here with any clarity.
TimTyler wrote on 7/14/2006, 12:45 PM
Jay_Gladwell :
> nudity, sex are the mud of society.

Man, you need to get out more. Nudity and sex are awesome! They're also unrelated, but you'll have a hard time understanding that I bet.
Jayster wrote on 7/14/2006, 12:48 PM
Unrelated? Yeah, you're right. When a beautiful naked woman is visible, men never have thoughts about sex. None at all. They think about water polo.

You could make the argument that in societies where nudity is common this isn't an issue, but most of us don't live in such a place.
fwtep wrote on 7/14/2006, 1:33 PM
> You really think that a 13 year old having sex is exactly as bad as a 13 year old murdering someone??? That's messed up. That's really messed up.

Nope. I fail to see the harm in a 13 year-old having sex. Can you please explain the harm, and how it's just as bad as murder? I can see the harm in murder, but not in sex. Sorry. (Note: I know there are circumstances where there *can* be harm with sex, such as rape, but I don't belive that harm is *inherent* in "underage sex.")

I'm not saying that 13 year-olds should be out every night picking up sex partners, but a 13 year-old having consensual sex once is, to me, far less objectionable than a 13 year-old murdering someone. (Also, by the way, my assumption in this hypothetical example here is that the sex is between two kids, not with an adult.)

Juliet was 13 in Romeo & Juliet. Is that muddying our society?
Logan5 wrote on 7/14/2006, 1:40 PM
I will be hading out ribbons at the end of the debate. (If possible to detect an end)

I’ll give ribbons for various categories like “least relating to topic tangents”
And “who likes nudity & sex more then the next guy”
Coursedesign wrote on 7/14/2006, 1:42 PM
I really can't imagine infidelity is more common anywhere overseas than in the U.S.

I've travelled extensively in 45 countries and made a substantial number of long term friends who told me stuff I don't think they even told their own families. I cetainly saw indications of infidelity in many places, but not any more than in the U.S.

Perhaps you're thinking that people here "are honest enough to just remarry instead?"

Yes, the MAJORITY of U.S. marriages end in divorce (over 50%), and for military personnel the divorce rate is over 70%.

I suspect infidelity has been around since Eve's sister suddenly showed up.

Infidelity has many causes, but there are good ways to reduce it with a deeper understanding.

To oversimplify, if one partner is surprised to see that the other was cheating for long time, there wasn't a true closeness, and now you're totally depending on people sticking with a formal agreement, people who haven't even learned what a "commitment" means.

I work with many soldiers coming back from Iraq, and they are treated like [the S-word that costs $325,000 to say on network television]. I talk to them about how most people don't understand the meaning of "commitment" and that is something they can very much relate to, whether in relationships or as a soldier.

Any married man who can see a sexy woman in the street without raising his blood pressure a little bit, needs to see his doctor. Any of those men who forgets that he's marrried, needs to see somebody else, and I'm not sure who that would be in today's society.

Perhaps a bit of self study wouldn't be harmful, but there is too much on TV tonight, and too many other things to do, so it doesn't happen, and we all get caught up in life as it happens and let ourselves be just tossed about by the winds.

Suddenly I find it astonishing that we had co-ed saunas at my university, and nobody thought anything of it. There were no sexual assaults, and no harrassment of any kind. Everybody just thought "this is bathing, not sex."

(I do remember being concerned about personal embarrassment of a particular kind, but at a 109C/232F ambient temperature that just doesn't happen.)

I really wonder if this still exists though. The daily bombardment with examples of inappropriate behavior (violence and non-loving sex) on TV especially has probably infiltrated the last bastions on earth.

Still, the answer is not censorship. That has not worked before and won't work in the future either.

In the end we must educate ourselves and our children, att least I don't see any other way.

farss wrote on 7/14/2006, 2:09 PM
This is a forum about EDITING, right?

Isn't editing that mysterious art that relies upon maintaining a visual flow to a hidden rhythm?
Isn't that craft that done right almost no one notices it?

So here we are having a debate about copyright and moral values and who knows what else when surely for us (editors) these people are hacking into the work of one of us. Doesn't matter if it's Deep Throat or Mary Poppins we're talking about, editing is editing regardless of content.

So why aren't we all outraged by this, forget the argument about the content, it's our craft that's under attack.

So lets save the moral debate for pulpits and soapboxes, it's what we all have in common, being editors, that's under attack.

Bob.
Spot|DSE wrote on 7/14/2006, 2:21 PM
Utterly agreed with each and every word, Bob.
fwtep wrote on 7/14/2006, 2:43 PM
> I suspect infidelity has been around since Eve's sister suddenly showed up.

Hey, Eve's sister was HOT!
ken c wrote on 7/14/2006, 3:41 PM
you nailed it, Bob. agree 110%


ken
kdm wrote on 7/14/2006, 7:15 PM
It is a good point, but I see both sides - copyright is copyright - the courts are deciding where editing ends and the work becomes "engraved in stone" it would seem.

At the same time Hollywood seems to be deaf to the whole point of Cleanflix - a lot of people don't see any value in profanity, etc. in movies - it rarely if ever adds anything of redeeming value to the story. I've bypassed watching several movies, either in the theatre or rental, simply because there was more emphasis on sex, violence, and vulgarity than an actual story (then again, an actual story is somewhat rare...but I digress). It may be a blow to Cleanflix, and perhaps editing too, but in the long term, viewers are really the biggest losers with what we have to wade through to see a half decent movie (generalization of course) - hopefully Hollywood gets to feel a bit of the impact as well. After all Hollywood isn't exactly the best role model for a functional society. Hiding behind copyright laws isn't a good excuse for ignoring it's failings. ;-)
Coursedesign wrote on 7/14/2006, 7:43 PM
If people voted with their wallets, this could change in a very short time.

Currently, violence and sex increases sales, so the bean counters love it.

Conversely, a "G" rating repels teenagers, because "it's obviously not cool."
corug7 wrote on 7/14/2006, 8:11 PM
"I fail to see the harm in a 13 year-old having sex."

Guess you haven't lived in any poor neighborhoods lately. 13 year old girls can have children, and 13 year old boys aren't interested in being daddies. Sad to say, most young fathers aren't interested in being daddies.

"Nudity... Is the mud of society"

Actually, wasn't Adam made of mud? Wasn't he nude until sin brought shame and lust into the hearts and minds of man? So, I guess mud became the nudity of society ;-)

"...the Bible was never a complete work by any one author"

Any fundamentalist Christian church would argue that one to the bone.
Coursedesign wrote on 7/14/2006, 8:27 PM



I am just curious how they figure out which Bible translations are OK.

If they all come directly from God, how can any of them be less than perfect?

Cheno wrote on 7/14/2006, 8:35 PM
Like Bob and Spot have said...

let's LEAVE the politics and religion out of this. This is an EDITING forum. Frankly I'm ashamed for some of you that can't just move on....

cheno
kdm wrote on 7/14/2006, 8:43 PM
The Bible's translaters just used different editors. Some used Vegas, others Avid, some Media 100, some Final Cut Pro (version 4.0 BC). Each final copy used the same original footage though, and the movie is pretty darn good. How's that for a tie in. ;-)
filmy wrote on 7/14/2006, 8:53 PM
>>>I am just curious how they figure out which Bible translations are OK. <<<

There was an amazing documentary that National Geographic just did on the finding of the book of Judas. The film not only covers the book of Judas but gives historical background as to how and why it might have been hidden away in the first place. The film covers just how many "books" there were and how/why they got cut down and "censored". It is a well done (and edited) documentary and it is based on facts and one of the most interesting parts is how they break down the last supper and show the various versions from various "books". The Gospel of Judas. You can also view a preview (flash needed) here: Gospel of Judas preview.
Jayster wrote on 7/14/2006, 11:01 PM
Seems the original thread got zapped. How long before this one bites the dust? Not soon enough...
fwtep wrote on 7/14/2006, 11:14 PM
corug7 said: (re: 13 year-olds having sex) "Guess you haven't lived in any poor neighborhoods lately. 13 year old girls can have children, and 13 year old boys aren't interested in being daddies. Sad to say, most young fathers aren't interested in being daddies."

That's irrelevant because although it's related, it's entirely another issue. I asked what's wrong with the sex, not what happens if the guy is a loser who won't take responsibility. After all, that scenario is not even slightly limited to under age sex. Besides, you're saying it's the *consequences* are potentially bad, not the act itself. I agree with that. And still I say that even with those consequences it's better than a 13 year-old girl murdering someone. There are still options if a girl becomes pregnant that won't ruin her life, and its certainly not guaranteed to ruin someone's life like murder is (i.e. the victim's life).
corug7 wrote on 7/15/2006, 11:57 AM
So, to relate this to your murder senario, shooting people isn't bad, it's the consequences of shooting people (ie. death, maiming, etc.) that is wrong.

Also, do you really think a 13 year-old would be a loser for wanting to remain a kid?

"Juliet was 13..."
We saw how well that turned out.
fwtep wrote on 7/15/2006, 8:05 PM
> So, to relate this to your murder senario, shooting people isn't bad, it's the consequences of shooting people (ie. death, maiming, etc.) that is wrong.

Um, no, that's not an equivalent to what I said. The consequence of shooting someone is always either death or extreme damage. So it's fair to tie the act and the consequence together. Not so with sex. The negative consequences of sex are not automatic and absolute; far more often than not, the consequences are not negative.

A 13 year-old girl can have sex and NOT get pregnant, NOT be raped, and NOT have her life ruined. But a 13 year-old can not murder someone (or try to) and have no negative consequences.

So again, underage sex is not as bad as underage violence. Here's another way of proving that underage sex isn't as bad as violence: As soon as a kid turns 18, sex is OK. But even at 18 and older, violence is not OK. So if sex is wrong one day, and perfectly fine literally the next day, how can it be "abhorrent?"

> Also, do you really think a 13 year-old would be a loser for wanting to remain a kid?

Why do people always interpret "I don't think X is bad," as "I think X is great?" I never said 13 year-old girls SHOULD be running around having sex, just that I don't think nudity and violence are equally bad. I think that the potential damage to a kid seeing a lot of violence on TV and in movies is worse than the potential damage in seeing nudity. I'd rather have my kid see nudity than violence, becuase if she were going to emulate something I'd rather it not be violence. Do I want her to see or do either one yet? No, the issue was just which one I find less objectionable.

> "Juliet was 13..." We saw how well that turned out.

Right. Their problem was one of violence, not sex. They didn't have sex (OK, that's been debated). But the death of Mercutio set everything off; and it was kids emulating the violence they saw around them (the feud). If they'd have been more like Romeo and Juliet, that is, lookin' for love, the lives of half a dozen or more people wouldn't have been ruined. :-)