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Oh no, you said you are tired of smoke and mirrors. I have two words for you... "back door".

Many others and myself have spent many hours doing the prior research and the time typing answers for you.

Clients means "being paid", you are asking for us to provide you shortcuts to solutions so you can be paid which in turn took the rest of us effort and time without getting paid directly.

You should receive no more free help to supply you with an income while you don't aid our income plus inflict us with your incredibly selfish, arrogant childish behavior as display the fact that you have obviously done ABSOLUTELY no basic manual/help file reading not to mention other basic audio/video research on your own.

I boycott you and will not contribute to your income until you contribute to mine.

MJ

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I may have missed something here... but it seems to me that these forms are to help people right? But the user before this comment was not to nice about it. So why bust on other people for asking for help? That is what this place is about... geting and giving help. So maybe a person is not giving as much help as they are taking... but if you give help only to expect to receive help... then are you really giving?

The poor guy came here for help because he thought this was a good place to get help. I think it is!

I am sorry for those who act in such a way to make this seem like a bad place and Iam sorry I can't help you because I dont' know the answer... but I tell you this... if I did know it I would help you for free.

I wish you the best of luck my friend!

-Ed :)

If you render out you will still have your project. Perhaps the jitteriness(sp?) is a preview issue and will translate fine into a final render. Have you looked at any output yet? Sorry I can't offer more.

Interesting that you seem to say that it's generated media that's got the shakes -- flickering -- stuttering. Sony?

DGrob

MrEd,
Please click on ZippYGaloo.

MJ

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I know nothing about 24P pull down, but Vital Forces' post in the undernoted thread has lots of info which may help >

http://www.mediasoftware.sonypictures.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=225914

Zippy,
i only know the theory of this so please bear with me, maybe this will at least help you understand what is happening.

When you capture 24pA with remove pulldown you end up with what is real fim, 24 full frames per second, you cannot PTT this format. It is ideal for transfer to film and the only way is via files on a HDD.

So you've applied fx to each one of those frames and then applied pulldown to get it back as valid NTSC. Problem is your also pulling down fx etc applied at 24 fps so its not going to look anywhere near as smooth as applying them at 30i.

I suspect that also the audio is synced to teh 24p frames and when you apply pulldown all hell breaks loose. Maybe what you can do is render the audio out separately and then bring the good audio back into the good video and pray that you can hold sync. I've done similat things with mpeg once when I was in a hurry and it held sync fine.

I'd just be doing small renders as tests to see what you can achieve.

Why did you shoot 24P if you're not delivering 24P? That's the crux of your problem.

You've already outlined several valid solutions to your problem yourself - but since you shot in 24P but are delivering on NTSC (yes?) then every solution will have its plus points and its down points.

I suggest you do small test renders of each solution (of a segment that includes video and FX and animated titles, etc) and see what they look like on an NTSC monitor via DV. Then choose the one you like the most (or dislike the least!).

If I HAD to predict which will look best, I would say load up your original project, change the project settings to NTSC (so that generated media will be true NTSC and only the footage will be converted), do a "Save As..." in case everything goes screwy, then render it out to an NTSC DV AVI file. Start a new NTSC project, load the rendered AVI into it, and print it to tape. If it has issues, then you might be able to quickly fix it using the rendered AVI (eg, selecting "reduce interlace flicker" etc) rather than rerendering the whole thing again from the original project.

I wish I had more time to help, but I'm busy, and you don't exactly encourage people to help you when you make "SMOKE AND MIRRORS!" types of posts. Did you ever sort that problem out? What was the solution?

And I have to ask again - why did you shoot 24P if you're not delivering 24P? Going for the "film look"? You do know that part of the "film look" is a certain strobiness, right? Especially on non-motion-blurred animations. Maybe the look that you dislike might seem cool to others... :-)

All the best,



Skevos Mavros
mavart@mavart.com
http://www.mavart.com

Zip, Fear is a strong motivator. I assume you can open your project, as you do everyday. And I assume you can save it, like you do every day. From the Timeline save project 'A', 24 p. From the time line save a second time as project 'B; 24p. Then experiment, with 'B'. Good luck John.

John (just above) has some great advice. I've done this from day one. And I mean day one from me using personal computers which goes back a over a couple decades. ALWAYS assume s... happens. Because it can.

If you get in the habit of saving your work, regardless what type of work, video editing, working on a spreadsheet, a word document anything and everything. SAVE IT every few minutes as version A, B, C, whatever. I usually save every 10 minutes or so. At best I'll lose just that much work, but work I just done and can easily redo if I have to because its still fresh in my mind. Its a good habit to get into.

Doing this simple thing which only takes a few seconds has saved my butt over and over again from power interuptions, system crashes and mostly my own stupidity in doing something dumb and not realizing it until it was too late and saved over a version.

As far as your particular problem I can't help you. Never tried that format yet and me guessing isn't what you need.

Also some more friendly advise. Its rather obvious you like to push the envelope. That's fine. But it seems you always jump in with both feet, spend days, weeks on a project. Get it done, run into a problem then you yell bloody murder in the forum hoping someone will bail you out again.

When you try something new or different it makes sense to render out a minute or two to see if its doing what you expect by making a quick burn to a rewritable DVD, play it, and see how it flys. If you don't have a DVD burner just render to DV tape and take a look that way. In the long run you're far better off, it takes less time and if you run into a problem you may a get a much better, quicker solution when the problem is small and managable. It sure beats the I imported this, then rendered as this, then I did this,then this and this, that didn't work, so I rendered to this, that's didn't work either so I rerender this way, now what the heck do I do approach.

BillylBoy,
as someone who's spent most of my life in IT that's the best advice I've seen you give on this forum.

What never ceases to amaze me is given that it's so bleeding obvious why do people even need to be reminded of it.

One of the wierd things about computers is I've never known anyone who follows your advice to have a hard disk crash, mains to fail at a vital moment or to commit acts of gross stupidity either. Wierd isn't it.

Yea thanks, but its human nature to ignore it. ;-)

Nobody expects the power to go off at a critical moment or your UPS to give up the ghost, after all its suppose to protect your system. Ditto for having a system crash or a hard drive die and mostly like I said the guy tickeling the keyboard. Oh no, he never does nothing wrong. No, of course not. Does anybody get up in the morning and say to themselves, hmm...I bet Windows is going to crash today, I better be extra careful because it hasn't crashed in a few months, its overdue. I doubt it. So most blissfully go along and pop off when something bad happens.

I've known many IT guys back in my accounting days. Most were underpaid, overworked and always the first blamed when something went wrong. I bet nobody pops in your office to thank you for keeping things running smoothly all month long, but if the system is down for five minutes you got fifty people trying to get you on the phone. :-)

The one invention that I made great use of during my IT days was voice mail. If we had a major outage I'd have a message advising people that we knew about it and the more calls I had to answer the longer it was going to take to fix it.

farss - I wonder who out there really appreciates the value of, "It's bleeding obvious" - I for one laughed myself sidways! - Nicely put . . . sometimes its the simplest of Brit humour that truly gets to the core of an issue . . . . straight talking and simply put . . . something I've been accussed of lacking, from time to time.

On the saving as you go business - I've recently had my belly full of this when even when I saved the project I've been banjaxed. I'm having too rebuild a project - 2 weeks to go for the client - because of the Bin thing! - Hey Ho!

Best regards,

Grazie

Zip,

You can also try:
- open another copy of Vegas, and create a project in NTSC DV, with the allow pulldown selected
- copy events (area of problem or all events) from your project to the other - and try to render
- do the same with pulldown cleared

It is not clear to me - your jitter is on the 24p original or 30i original? When you say "video" look - which part?. When you render to 24p - what did you use for de-interlace method?

Udi

Try this:

1) Save project to a new name.

2) Turn off the general pref "Allow pulldown removal when opening 24p DV"

3) Set the project to NTSC DV, stock project template, no changes.

4) Save project. Close Vegas, reopen project, render as regular NTSC DV.

This look will give a nice compromise- it'll look (ok, to some degree) as if you shot film, transferred film to tape, edited at 29.97 interlaced, added graphics at 29.97 interlaced, delivered as 29.97 interlaced....so it'll look sort of like better episodic TV.

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Zippy,
from my limited understanding of shooting 24p:

If the target is video then there's no real difference between 24p or 24pA. The advantage comes about if you want to remove the pulldown, you get slightly better results as all the original frmaes can be rebuilt from the fields.

You're only mistake was removing the pulldown, as far as I'm aware you should only ever do this if you are going to print to film. If you want to PTT then you need the pulldown and applying it after you've applied the fx is not a good thing to do.

But there are other issues that you need to be aware of. 24p is the same as film, motion artifacts can beoome a big issue which as I understand it is one of the reasons film is shot with subtle differences compared to video. It cannot cope with as much motion as video can before things start to look wierd. You need to understand this before you start to shoot, once it happens it cannot be fixed without reshooting.

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