Delivering HD Video

JHendrix wrote on 1/24/2012, 10:49 AM

so we all have this great HD video in our timelines but it turns out bluray is dead and downrez to SD defeats the point!!

the only option AFAICT then is Streaming Video or Digital Download with are both worlds better than the -- tiny -- SD DVD

i am kind of stuck, i read tutorials like this: http://www.precomposed.com/blog/2009/07/hd-to-sd-dvd-best-methods/ which are quite cumbersome + still only yields SD DVD. i rendered out a Lagarith master from Vegas and using the Flash option in Encore I am able to render 1280X720. it is not 1920X1080 but its better than SD DVD for sure.

so at this point, for Digital Download , I am considering rendering out 1920X1080 mp4 and just selling data DVDs and /or .zip files with an html interface that plays the videos

and for Streaming Video, I am considering rendering out the 1280X720 and just selling page access to video streams.

so what are you guys doing to deliver? are you just still making SD DVD from your HD projects or ???????

(by the way, i don't make movies, just training videos...thats why i just dont see bluray as something that will be useful because i dont think anyone will buy it even if I go to the extra trouble/cost of making it)

Comments

johnmeyer wrote on 1/24/2012, 1:34 PM

I'm not sure I understand the "Blu-Ray is dead" comment. I agree that it never took off like DVD did back in 1997, but that was a record-setting adoption. However, based on figures I looked up just yesterday, Blu-Ray players are supposedly in 33 million USA households, and the value of Blu-Rays discs sold (don't know about rentals) is over $1 billion.

So I don't think it is dead, although here in Carmel, after shooting HD since late 2005, I still have yet to receive one single request for delivery on Blu-Ray.

However, in answer to your question, I think you have several option for saving a project in HD form on a media that can be played on either a home theater or computer.

The best option, despite everything in your post and in my ramblings above, is to put it on Blu-Ray. It works, and is a standard and, as I document above, it is in widespread use (unlike, for example, laserdisc).

If you still have something against Blu-Ray, then you can create a DVD that has HD material on it. This will still have to be played on a Blu-Ray player, but it gets away from the Blu-Ray media. Search for "AVCHD DVD" both in this forum and on the Internet, via Google.

Another option is to simply render using one of the many AVC (MP4) templates, using either the MainConcept or Sony AVC encoders. Even though 1280x720 loses information when compared to the 1440x1080 or 1920x1080 that you are probably getting from your camcorder, it has the advantage of playing much more smoothly on a wide variety of devices. Make sure to use the "high" and not "base" profile when doing this, and use a bitrate of at least 5,000,000 (15,000,000 - 20,000,000 will be even better, if space is no problem). Put the results of this on a DVD, and let people play the MP4 file on their computer. Unfortunately, this will not play on most people's big-screen TVs because very few people have computers attached to their TV set (although they should, but that's a post for another time).

I'm sure that others will have even better ideas to add to this.

monoparadox wrote on 1/24/2012, 2:06 PM

Don't underestimate the growing number of people playing from tablets (ipad, etc) to their televisions.

drmathprog wrote on 1/24/2012, 3:27 PM

"So I don't think it is dead, although here in Carmel..."

Carmel takes me way back. My wife and I rented a cottage in Carmel-by-the-Sea for two months back in the 80's while I started grad. school. Lovely place, except for the bit about carrying about a flash light with you at night to find your way around. ;-)

JHendrix wrote on 1/24/2012, 4:22 PM

great feedback, i would, of course, like to delver all formats if its doable.

at this point I am going to focus on web video delivery (digital download and streaming) and hope to also offer bluray.

i am trying to find a place that does - on demand, single order bluray. i sometimes use createspace for sd dvd but it has limitations and no bluray. the perfect solution for bluray would be on-demand, single order and ability to place orders via xml for connecting to my shopping cart.

JHendrix wrote on 1/28/2012, 12:38 PM

anyone else working on new/different delivery options?

Laurence wrote on 1/28/2012, 12:51 PM

Vimeo Pro

JHendrix wrote on 1/28/2012, 1:56 PM

i have been looking at Vimeo Pro. do you know the performance of the video playback VS Amazon S3?

NickHope wrote on 1/29/2012, 12:39 AM

You need to differentiate download speed and playback.

Vimeo videos download extremely fast here (Bangkok). Last I heard they were using the Bitgravity CDN. But the Amazon CDN is very fast too. S3 is not enough. You need to use Amazon Cloudfront on top of S3.

Regardging playback, Vimeo can exhibit stuttering more than other services, although in my case I haven't noticed that much recently.

Laurence wrote on 1/29/2012, 12:42 AM

I haven't seen Vimeo stutter since they went HTML5.

craftech wrote on 1/29/2012, 7:57 AM

so what are you guys doing to deliver? are you just still making SD DVD from your HD projects or ???????
=================
Last year for the school I shoot the musical for every year I offered a Blu-ray version. It was the first year that I used my EX1 to shoot it instead of my VX2000.

Sold 60 SD DVDs. No one wanted a Blu-ray. I left the two Blu-ray copies and several SD DVDs with the director. She usually sells a bunch of them during the school year.
I checked with her recently because the musical for this year is coming up soon. She sold several more SD DVDs and the two Blu-ray versions are still sitting in her office.

HD to SD (as you have seen from all the threads on the subject) is relatively complicated compared to shooting SD and delivering SD and there are many ongoing experiments to try to get the best results. None of them are perfect.

John

johnmeyer wrote on 1/29/2012, 11:36 AM

John,

Your story about the lack of Blu-Ray demand is very interesting to me. As I already posted, I've had similar lack of demand, but the big difference is that I actually still haven't made a Blu-Ray disc and offered it.

I think this year it is finally time to get a Blu-Ray burner. I think I'll get an external one. I'm hoping there is something that can burn and then later be attached to my home theater for playback. I guess I need to start doing some research on what's available and what works well.

videoITguy wrote on 1/29/2012, 4:25 PM

I am hard-pressed to understand why a professional such as yourself has not been touching Blu-ray yet. I am a working professional that started producing Blu-ray two years ago- I am now on my second burner after a burn of many many discs - and it is the only thing I release at this time. When you start with good hi-definition footage why go the SD route? Now granted customers drive the business, but in my case, I also develop and lead customers with new technology- I believe that to be truly the way to nurture and develop the business that I want to be in.

Doug

John_Cline wrote on 1/29/2012, 4:45 PM

I'm with Doug on this one, I've always considered part of my job to be that of a salesman, I have never quite understood the notion of sitting around waiting for someone to ask for something. I have been enthusiastic about HD video since I saw the first demonstration at NAB in 1985, over the last five years or so, HD televisions have become solidly mainstream. (Can you even buy an SD TV these days?) Entry level Blu-ray players are currently about $60 at Costco.

I have actively promoted the idea to my clients of shooting and delivering HD content. Most of them thought that HD was exclusively the domain of broadcast networks and movie studios, but once I showed them how reasonable the cost of HD production had become, most of them have jumped on it. I have one client for which I have been shooting and editing in HD for the last 7 years, but they have only been delivering in SD. Over the last year or so, they have had me go back and reauthor HD product and that has been an additional revenue stream for both me and them.

The point is, don't wait for them to ask, you may need to sell them on the idea by explaining to them what's possible these days. For example, I don't do weddings, but it seems to me that it would be an easy sell to convince people that they would certainly want the documentation of their wedding to at least be available on Blu-ray, either now or at some point in the future.

craftech wrote on 1/29/2012, 5:47 PM

....I have never quite understood the notion of sitting around waiting for someone to ask for something.
==================
With all due respect John, that's an assumption on your part.

In my case for example we had a showing of the musical. The students and their parents were invited. They watched the Blu-ray version.

When it was over many of them remarked about how great it looked. I told them it was a Blu-ray disc and that I would make that version available to them as well as the SD DVD. I explained that there was no way that the SD DVD could match the quality of the Blu-ray they just watched. It cost $35 for the SD DVD and $45 for the Blu-ray version.

None of them bought a Blu-ray. 60 of them bought the SD DVD.

John

John_Cline wrote on 1/29/2012, 6:08 PM

John (Craftech and Meyer), my remark wasn't directed at either of you, sorry if you got that impression. It was more of a general statement based on observing my competition here locally.

johnmeyer wrote on 1/29/2012, 6:44 PM

Too many "Johns" in this thread.

I think the remarks were intended as a response to my statement that I had not yet purchased a Blu-Ray burner (or player). By contrast John (craftech) already has purchased a burner and has been making discs for quite awhile. He did indeed try to sell those discs, but as he pointed out, he had no takers.

I completely accept the valid criticism about my failing to create and sell Blu-Ray discs. I have just been too busy with other things to devote what I assume will be a considerable learning curve to perfecting the creation of these discs to the same level of perfection that I think I can achieve with DVD. My failure is partly due to having other things to do; quite a bit of laziness; lack of any specific requests or demands; and a desire to keep costs down.

JHendrix wrote on 1/29/2012, 7:47 PM

"how reasonable the cost of HD production had become"

sure, to make an image folder on my desktop, but what about getting them pressed? also, isn't there some licensing fees? i would hate to get stuck with a box of blu! on-demand blu would be awesome,

videoITguy wrote on 1/29/2012, 10:21 PM

To JHendrix,
Pretend for me a moment that I am representing some venture capital. Now, like a lot of business "plans" that seem to get to the internet stage- I need to ask you to explain by what you mean " now Blu-ray on-demand that would be...." I want to hear how you imagine it to work, who gets what from such a venture, how much does it cost the customer, etc... Please I would like to hear your proposal.

Doug

JHendrix wrote on 1/30/2012, 8:27 AM

this page explains an automated on demand process ...can even hook it to a cart and not have to do any processing.

http://www.cd-fulfillment.com/

http://www.cd-fulfillment.com/automate-integrate-ordering.asp

i just dont think there is anyone doing it for bluray

Rory Cooper wrote on 1/30/2012, 9:00 AM

Media players are getting cheaper

100% of my HD content is for media players if it is an event or launch or private I add the cost of a small media player into the price…never cut a blue ray…ever
720P to 1080i no hassles.

http://www.dinodirect.com/wholesale-media-player-hdmi-media-player.html
Some media players from china are so cheap it’s a joke and they rip MKV.

videoITguy wrote on 1/30/2012, 11:31 AM

JHendrix

Your referral to an on-demand website - very carefully points out that this an unproven business model and that attempts at it are failing.
Look under the hood to see how this particular one is being propped-up as it limps along.

THIS is not to say it is not a great idea..IT IS! And I totally agree that a Blu-ray demand system would be a boon to independents. Keep in mind that those who created Blu-ray were very against the prospect of the process of production getting out-of-control as it quickly did with DVDs. Licensing is a big hurdle that has been kept in place since manufacture of burners has become more commonplace.

The sweet-spot of Blu-ray value per disk sale in mid 2012 will reach about $9.00 per disk for a press-manufactured release at retail. (Qualify ;that means Hollywood titles that have been in release for about 3 plus years). As an independent producer you will need to create a business model for limited -run one-offs burned or pressed that can appear for sale at that pricing. That is the challenge here.

MUTTLEY wrote on 1/30/2012, 1:25 PM

I hafta agree with JHendrix's original post that Blu-Ray is dead, some might say it never really lived. I echo johnmeyer's statement "I still have yet to receive one single request for delivery on Blu-Ray." Never, not once, zip. zilch, nada. I don't own a Blu-Ray burner or player and have no desire to move backwards to get one. Quite awhile ago I got a Seagate media player, all I have to do is drop a file on a thumbdrive and *poof*, there it is in all its glory on my 60 inch flat screen. My TV has a usb slot as well that I believe will also play video files but haven't tried it. Beyond that for watching HD content I have a DVR, the TV has Netflix and streams HD content, and not just Netfilx but I can purchase HD movies and TV shows from Amazon, Hulu or a variety of other providers. In my own experience the companies that I've done training video's or whatnot for have had no desire for Blu-Ray, they know their clients and have already run the numbers and the demand is just not there. Unlike Blu-Ray everyone has a DVD player. Many also offering streaming versions which are HD.

Upshot is a 99% of the time I simply deliver an HD file or a finished DVD and an HD file for them to archive should they need it later or elsewhere. Though I hear what John Cline is saying when he says "part of my job to be that of a salesman" but since I'm of the camp that thinks Blu-Ray is dead it would be disingenuous for me to even suggest it. I was skeptical about Blu-Ray from the beginning and nothing I've seen has convinced me otherwise. My feelings about all this were reinforced while checking out at a CVS pharmacy and at the register they had a display right next to the lighters and other random point of sale items was Michael Jackson's "This Is It" for sale on a USB drive.

- Ray
Underground Planet

tim-evans wrote on 1/30/2012, 2:15 PM

Right now I am shooting events and selling through Kunaki. It is easy as once the content is uploaded I am not involved in the distribution and only receive a check for copies sold. I can set the pricing dynamically.

If I want to deliver HD content, how do I do this in a way that is just as easy and that has a proven method for me to get paid?

johnmeyer wrote on 1/30/2012, 2:48 PM

One thing that shiny round discs (CD, DVD, Blu-Ray) have going for them is that you have an archive -- at some level of quality -- of your work.

This leads me to a question.

If you don't put your HD video onto Blu-Ray discs, how are you archiving them? On memory cards? Hard drives? On some "cloud" backup (e.g., Carbonite)?

We've already had lots of discussions about the viability of various types of media for long term storage, and I can easily do my own research on that. What interests me more is what is someone who is skipping Blu-Ray entirely actually doing to store all their media? I too may skip Blu-Ray, so this is a question I'd really like answered, and by someone who is actually doing it.