Deuce of Spades

jwcarney wrote on 4/26/2010, 11:40 AM
Faith Granger, who has a thread over at dvxuser in the user films section...has spent the last 3 years making her first feature length movie, with no prior experience. Shot on HVX200/with Letus and Nikon lenses and edited in Vegas.

A true auteur who did everything herself except for a few volunteers and actors of course..., and showing there are no excuses for the rest of us.

Here is a link to a recent article where she talks about her experience and the upcoming DVD release. Apparently the buzz is getting so hot around this, NetFlix has already optioned to add it to their rental library without her having to ask them.

If you read the last several pages of the thread at dvxuser, she was able to figure out how to export audio from Vegas, send it to Pro Tools, without any hassles.

Worth your time even if you don't like Hot Rod movies.


John_Cline wrote on 4/26/2010, 12:17 PM
I've been following her progress through the production of her movie. I have a small problem with her saying, "Making this film was breaking every known rule of filmmaking... And getting away with it! Having never been to film school, my mind was a blank canvas. I didn't know what the rules were, so I made my own." Then she proceeeds to list all of the professionals that helped her along the way. She might not have known the rules but they certainly did. You have to know what the rules are before you can break them.

Regardless, I don't want to diminish her accomplishment. She had a dream and made it happen. Good for her! Although, it does seem that she had a fair amount of her own money to spend on it and she had a lot of professional help and advice.
PerroneFord wrote on 4/26/2010, 12:50 PM
"If you read the last several pages of the thread at dvxuser, she was able to figure out how to export audio from Vegas, send it to Pro Tools, without any hassles."

Nothing could be further from the truth. It was me she was on the phone with for hours upon hours trying to get that audio exported out of Vegas (Barry Green too). It was me who helped her with getting the basic coloring right before her first showing. And talking her down from a tree when Vegas couldn't render, or Vegas was giving her out of memory errors or was crashing.

It was me who helped her at the 11th hour when DVDA was failing and she had to get the dvd burned for her initial screening in Daytona Beach.

And it was me helping her through this project that made me understand without a shadow of a doubt that I would NEVER try to do a feature in Vegas. That and watching what happened with Corrado as well.

By the way, the intial audio export was not to ProTools. Vegas can't do that without the help of a rather expensive (~$600) third party program which Adam had to use on Corrado. Faith's audio people were using something else which necessitated a two step export process. It was a royal pain.

So before you go off about how smoothly things were, get the facts.

FrigidNDEditing wrote on 4/26/2010, 3:20 PM
I don't remember what it is, but there's a $99 tool that gets audio into ProTools ( why you would want to use "Pro" tools is another question entirely ).

PerroneFord wrote on 4/26/2010, 5:26 PM
If you can think of it, PLEASE let me know. I certainly haven't heard of ANY tool that can get the audio mix out of Vegas, maintain tracks, and send the mix to protools without doing a 2-track mixdown. At least not for that kind of price.
FrigidNDEditing wrote on 4/26/2010, 9:41 PM
I was mistaken, it takes audio from Pro-Tools (might have been from FCP) into Vegas for $99, but I haven't got the name ( was just reviewing some chat where it was mentioned ). Not sure if it's bi-directional or just into Vegas. I'll find it for you though, no worries.

MarkWWWW wrote on 4/27/2010, 5:33 AM
AAtranslator can currently transfer audio mix data (fades, pans, etc) between Vegas and ProTools by translating Vegas XML to ProTools native PT5 format. The next version of AATranslator will have improved OMF features and will be able to do the translation using Vegas XML and OMF. Cost is $99 for the full-featured version.

Of course if you just want to get the track audio data across you can either do it manually or let the free Vasst Trackalizer script do the drudgery for you.

Laurence wrote on 4/27/2010, 6:17 AM
It looks like that program will work for translating OMF to Vegas EDL, but not the other way around. The Vasst Trackalizer will give you one audio file per track and is probably the easiest way to go from Vegas to Pro Tools.
MarkWWWW wrote on 4/27/2010, 8:20 AM
Don't use the Vegas EDL format, there's nowhere near enough detail included - use the Vegas XML (aka "script") format instead.


FrigidNDEditing wrote on 4/27/2010, 10:01 AM
that was the one.
FrigidNDEditing wrote on 4/27/2010, 10:02 AM
That was the one.

But I was pretty sure it does to and from, not just from.

jwcarney wrote on 4/29/2010, 10:16 AM
Perrone, that's why I said read the thread. I was giving a synopsis.Try paying attention some time, it would help. Didn't realize you personally saved her movie. Congratulations, really. She should give you a cut of the profits, right?
(Wait, I forgot, movies NEVER make money).

Of course she had help with the editing and other post issues. She said as much, but during the actual filming, it was mainly her and an assistant. Somehow soliciting advice during the process makes it less of an effort? Really?
She readily admits to getting help from the Hot Rodding community too. But she wrote the script, cast the talent, purchased the necessary equipment, put in the hours....unlike so many who think buying a camera and an NLE makes them a film maker...

What she meant by breaking the rules is that the common wisdom says go to school, go out and make a bunch of short movies getting experience with various parts of the process while you learn your craft, or you will fail at making a feature.

I guess she wasn't macho enough for some, by just 'doing it' and not asking for advice on anything.
Most of the 'help' has come during post. And if those 'pros' had simply kept a copy of Vegas an hand, they could have made her and others lives easier.

What she said is that she is able to export audio from Vegas without problems. Most of her issues were with her own admitted ignorance on things. Requiring a third party tool to move things back and forth somehow diminishes this? Since the pros helping her are doing it for free, I'll withhold my opinion on the subject.

She has publicly thanked those who have helped her. It was buzz from the thread that attracted professionals to help her in the first place. I'm pretty sure, if the movie truly sucked they would have found a way to back out.
Are people jealous because this? I've seen a lot of mean spirited posts about it.

Implying something negative because she spent her own money is just sour grapes IMHO. BTW, that is another so called 'no no' when making a feature. Another rule she broke. She did turn down an investor just to retain control.

She is putting in the long hours, following the good advice she has been given, concerning sound. But apparently, doing the actual work is lessened when a 'pro' tells you what and how to do it. I guess she should have read a book and kept her mouth shut.

The main thing I took from her experience is, don't create a thread about making your own movie, it just makes you a target.

It seems to bring out the worst is some people. The most egregious posts came from those who have never attempted to make a feature length movie.

As far as using Vegas for feature work? I personally know several people who have done just that and will continue to use Vegas. I'm not sure if I will, or use AVID, it depends on whether I use a Red camera or not. (If I get access to a RED, I'll stick with Vegas).

Yes she got help and is grateful.., but she put in the long hours to get the movie made. Big difference between offering advice vs going out and putting in the effort

Jeez seems people can't admire anything without sh#t being thrown at it.

PerroneFord wrote on 4/29/2010, 10:42 AM
Dude, I read the thread. I've been in that thread since she it. Your synopsis was poor at best and somewhat misleading. You didn't do Faith or yourself service with it. I didn't personally save her movie though I might have saved the Daytona screening. But there were a lot of folks who chipped in both in post and during production to help her out.

I remember doing an 8hr session with her during production to show her how to use the scopes, and to show her how to do a one light. I did some conversion for her because she couldn't get Vegas to recognize the .MOD files from her "B" camera. Later we worked through some basic organization of the project, we worked through DVDA issues, worked through render failure issues, and export issues. I know David Jimerson assisted in a similar capacity as did Barry Green, and others. We didn't ask for any money, or at least I didn't. I simply asked for screen credit and a free DVD copy, and that was granted.

Faith has come under fire not for her project, but more because some people felt she marginalized those who assisted her along the way. I don't necessarily agree with the sentiment, and I was happy to provide assistance to her. She has my personal cell number and has used it. She can call me any time for help with the project.

Also your assertion that if the other "pros" she was collaborating with had simply kept Vegas on hand her problems would have been gone", is short sighted and in some cases absolutely wrong. When you are an amateur filmmaker on a tight budget, you don't go to a re-recording artist with $70k in gear and complain because they don't have Vegas. Vegas won't touch what some of these sound and visual effects guys are doing on that film.

She most certainly has publicly thanked those who have helped and that has been most welcome, though totally unnecessary. She has proven to be an incredibly gracious person, and a joy to work with. She has accomplished something many would like ot do but simply cannot or will not.

Your comment about there being a big difference between offering advice and putting in the work is incredibly true. I've worked on at least one film per year for the past 4 years, and have three in 2010. At least one of those I will be an Exec. Producer for.

Also you might want to re-think your position on Avid/Vegas as far as Red is concerned. Vegas is doing GREAT with RED right now, but Avid have stepped up their game with MC5 and I can't wait to give it a shot in June.

Not trying to slam you... just saying...
jwcarney wrote on 4/30/2010, 8:32 AM
Perrone, I was being humorous about you helping her. She has been guilty of not giving enough credit to others who've helped her. But I think she has responded to that and done a better job of spreading the credit around. She really is new at this and making a lot of mistakes. But not letting that stop her is something I admire. She will be a much better producer/director on her next project thanks to all she has learned. I will be a better producer/director on my upcoming project by observing and learning from her mistakes. It's pretty rare to see such openness like this.

As far as Vegas vs Avid using Red. Avid MC STILL restricts you to 1080p output, no matter what the source. Vegas doesn't. Vegas has 32bit float color tools, Avid doesn't. Vegas can be a pain in the ass, but it is still ahead of Avid when it comes to Red source material. That may change over time, but as of today it's still true. AVID MC5 won't be out till this summer, and I don't think I'll have enough time to become competent at it and shoot a movie while dealing with all the production issues that Red brings to the table.

On the other hand, I am also looking at the new Panasonic HPX370. I put it through a few tests at NAB and was very impressed with it's performance. Almost all the short comings of the 300 have been addressed. 1080/24p is very doable if you know what you are doing. (applies to any digital camera and 24p). Being 1/3" chip is not a problem either. Getting 10bit workflow for under 10K and not having to use a Ki Pro or other external capture devices is a very big plus. If I go that route, the AVID will be what I use.
I honestly don't see most people getting a Scarlett before 2011 and I am not going to wait that long. I want to start shooting this summer.

I've checked rental prices for Red with lenses and DIT (or DMT as the Canadians call them). Prices varied from 1000 to 1500 a day. If they don't at least have the MX upgrade, I won't be interested at all.

The point of audio pros' having Vegas on hand was not to use it, but to make it easier to accept projects done in Vegas and retrieve what they needed using a 3rd party tool.
And I was referring to paying customers, not Faith. If I'm paying someone to do my audio mix, should I be forced to convert my audio to suit them? I don't think so. If they have 70k in equipment and software, the cost of keeping a copy of Vegas on hand is chump change. What many in the industry are saying is they will not support paying customers who use Vegas. That was the gist of my statement, sorry if that was not completely clear.

BTW, Faith did not complain about needing to export her audio. I was making a statement about that. Totally personal view point.

Also, I wasn't including you in the group of people who don't make feature length movies. It was a general statement, and you know as well as I there were several jerks trying to muck things up. One even telling her to drop Vegas right in the middle of production. Ridiculous.

No, i don't think you are trying to slam me. We are both expressing our opinions.

What most impresses me about what Faith is doing is something we can all learn from. Building interest in her movie without the need for an expensive ad campaign. The whole 'breaking the rules' speil is part of that. Having experienced people in the business think enough of your effort to offer help? Priceless. I just hope the movie doesn't suck. Could cause a backlash for other independent movie makers.

PerroneFord wrote on 4/30/2010, 12:00 PM
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and I agree completely. I am VERY curious how you get on with your RED projects. I've said I intend to keep Vegas for exactly the reasons you mention. I am looking for other color tools to include for my summer purchase, but since Color is not available to me (no Mac) the choices in the affordable range are pretty limited. I need to look more at Red Giant's stuff.

From what I have seen of Duece, I think the movie is going to be fine. Especially for a first effort. She's doing a hell of a job, and she gets major props from me.

jwcarney wrote on 5/1/2010, 1:30 PM
magic bullet looks and colorista are good. Both are available as part of the Magic bullet suite I purchased last year. The nice thing is one copy works in any supported NLE/compositer on your pc, including Avid MC. Colorista will give you secondary color correction with MC. All the Red Giant stuff works great in AE too.
When I talked to the people at Red Giant, they plan on releasing 64bit versions of most tools soon after AVID MC5 is out. They hemmed and hawed when I asked about 64bit support for Vegas. To be honest, I not sure Vegas actually needs them if one knows what they are doing with the built in tools.