Digital grading in Vegas

VMP wrote on 10/25/2005, 1:55 PM
Is there any plug-in for Vegas which allows digital grading?

Especially selection grading, ofcourse which you can then animate.

It's great to creat atmosphere/moods.

similar to - http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?id=5562789&siteID=123112

Also used in the new King Kong movie -

http://img-nex.kongisking.net/kong/movies/PPD-12WeeksToGo_qt6_high.mov

Thanks for any reply,
V

Comments

Coursedesign wrote on 10/25/2005, 2:46 PM
Ummm, did you get a price quote on Discreet Lustre?

The least expensive software that attempts to do serious color grading is Synthetic Aperture Color Finesse for abt $600. This is no Lustre, but a couple of notches above what you can do in Vegas.

Digital grading is 80% experience and skill, and 20% having the best tools you can afford.

Vegas has primary and secondary color correction, and with some of the other included tools you can do a lot. There is also a decent six vector color corrector available for free, search previous posts here.

farss wrote on 10/25/2005, 3:48 PM
The toolset in Vegas is pretty much adequate for the task. Certainly with the addition of masks (which you can do manually in Vegas) more can be achieved and having motion tracking makes the task easier. For that you need to spend a bit more, either Combustion or Digital Fusion, neither of which are hugely expensive and give you a whole lot more than just color correction.
HOWEVER!
There's a HUGE limitation that isn't immediately apparent. Working with 8 bit video, probably sampled at 4:1:1 there's a very limited amount that you can push things around before you hit serious limitation of the medium. Do NOT expect to drop video from your handycam into a Lustre system and do to it what can be done with 14 bit film originated files. It's been tried and it don't work, duh!
That's not to say that you cannot achieve a lot with the Vegas or FCP or PPro toolset, you just have to understand the limitations imposed by what you have to start with.
Bob.
skibumm101 wrote on 10/25/2005, 3:49 PM
a great tool is combustion. Not as great as lustre, but same layout and tool design. I have done much on it. But the last poster is correct, its more about what you can do with the tools. Good tools are needed, but if you dont know how to use them or have the experiance in grading, you might get very frustrated.

Edit
oh, and by the way, some of the big benifits of lustre is that you can work in 2k and 4k film scans. You most likley are not going to be doing that, so if your serious about digital grading, combustion would be an affordable powerfull tool, that has a lot of other features that will blow you away.

ryon
GlennChan wrote on 10/26/2005, 7:01 PM
skibumm101: Do you know how to do secondary color correction in Combustion? (like the one in Vegas, who also has an alpha control)
I find it aggravating that it doesn't have that. If it did, Combustion would be very nice.
Now you can get COlor Finesse to do secondary color correction, but the interface really annoys me since I'm used to Vegas.

2- On the Final Cut Pro side, there's Final Touch SD for $999 (needs a fully, fully loaded G5 so it's more expensive than you think).
It's more powerful than Vegas in some ways, and less powerful in some ways (the vignettes look wrong, which limits how far you can push them). Intergration with FCP is poor when I tried it, but things may have changed (FT changes very quickly).

It does have motion tracking, which rocks. But the vignettes limit you, which does not rock.

3- Anyways, Vegas is really nice for grading because:
A- It's free.
B- It's fairly fast. Integration is perfect, you don't waste time conforming stuff. Unlike Combustion, Combustion + Color Finesse, Final Touch (and presumably Lustre).
C- It's fairly powerful if you really sacrifice speed (rendering speed, and your time).

4- To do motion tracking in Vegas, it's probably best to export a clip into Combustion to generate masks. Import these masks in Vegas (with the multiply composite mode, and mask generator filter; read the manual) to get motion tracked masks.
*Ok, haven't tried this.
An alternative is to manual keyframe masks, which ain't that bad for short or simple clips. The masks will not stick perfectly though, which is not as good as motion tracking.

To do masks, just use the masking tool. Crtl drag to duplicate a clip onto itself. You do have to copy filters around or use nesting (if you have underlying corrections), which would be a pain in the butt.

5- To keep things in context: It looks like they are spending a significant amount of time on each shot of King Kong. For your productions, that may not be a luxury you have. If you're doing short films or commercials it would be worth it to do that level of details (and that kind of takes a lot of time to do in Vegas, but it's still not unreasonable; Final Touch is better).

For less complicated projects, then I would stay in Vegas because you can hack it to do what you want. Usually you get the most out of primary color correction (stuff that affects every pixel), and then secondary CC.
Going into masking and motion tracking is time-consuming and may not make a big difference in the final image.
For example: In the King Kong clip, the change to the eyes is very subtle and doesn't make that much of a difference. They actually have to zoom in to show you what's happening. If you compared the two images side to side, that kind of comparison will make the difference less obvious.
skibumm101 wrote on 10/26/2005, 9:23 PM
Glen, you have a lot of great comments, and i aggree with you mostly. I use vegas color correction for basic things, but when the project requires perfection and precisness i dont hesitate to add combustion into my pipeline. Vegas does a lot of things great, and everything else good, but there are other applications out there that do perform certain jobs better. I come from the film world, and vegas cant even be involved in those pipelines.

Dont get me wrong, Vegas can do do grading very well and for 80% of the users projects it will be just fine. I love combustion! Next to Vegas, it is my most used application. Not only is there a first class camera matching and motion tracking, it has a great 3d camera controls.

Anyway dont know what i am rambling about other then its nice to have great tools that compliment Vegas