Disappointing delivery

Comments

Rob Franks wrote on 5/8/2014, 10:20 PM
"When it comes time to render the output, there is only one codec offered by Vegas, Sony AVCHD, that can output the audio in Dolby 5.1 (as far as I can tell)."

Do not use the ready made M2TS (avchd) template which includes the AC3 audio. This template uses the studio AC3 encoder which does not put out a pro grade AC3 encode.

Render a separate Video file (AVC) and a separate audio file (AC3) with the pro encoder and use TSmuxer to mux the 2.
GeeBax wrote on 5/9/2014, 12:12 AM
[I]Both Avid DNxHD (LE 2.3.8) and UT video come from third parties, are downloaded from their sources, and install as MOV, and AVI VFW respectively in Vegas.
Best.[/I]

I downloaded the UT Video codec and seemingly installed it, but it does not appear in the list, and I am unable to determine from their readme how to go about installing it such that Vegas will find it?
John_Cline wrote on 5/9/2014, 12:32 AM
You will have to make a custom "Video for Windows .AVI" template, start with maybe the "HD 1080-24p YUV" template and select "Customize Template", under "Video Format" select "UTVideo RGB VCM", make sure the frame size and frame rate are set correctly and you might as well set the "Video Rendering Quality" on the "Project" tab to "Best." Then give the template a name and save it for future use.

GeeBax wrote on 5/9/2014, 5:18 AM
Thank you John, worked like a charm.
musicvid10 wrote on 5/9/2014, 7:19 AM
So, will UT render with multichannel PCM audio?
John_Cline wrote on 5/9/2014, 7:24 AM
"So, will UT render with multichannel PCM audio?"

Yes.
musicvid10 wrote on 5/9/2014, 8:39 AM
Now I need to see if Handbrake will map it to fdk-aac 5.1.
John_Cline wrote on 5/9/2014, 3:53 PM
"Now I need to see if Handbrake will map it to fdk-aac 5.1."

Yes, you should do that!
GeeBax wrote on 5/9/2014, 5:28 PM
The UT file worked well, then I got it down to a manageable size with Handbrake. I then rendered the audio as a separate AC3 file using the Pro encoder.

But when I used TSMuxer to combine them, it produce a smaller file than the Video stream and it does not play at all on the computer, the audio seems OK, but the video is mush.
musicvid10 wrote on 5/9/2014, 5:35 PM
Try Makemkv to MUX the audio before, or something like Yamb to MUX the audio after Handbrake.
GeeBax wrote on 5/10/2014, 8:15 PM
Thank you, I tried Yamb, and it seemed happy with everything, but it produced a fine MP4 as far as video goes, but there was no audio at all. Further, the little Dolby symbol that comes up in the bottom left corner of the player was corrupt as well.

So it seems so far I can make a nice MP4 and a nice AC3, but cannot get the two together.

I did not try MakeMKV as I do not want to end up with an MKV file.

Does anyone have any other suggestions?
musicvid10 wrote on 5/10/2014, 8:30 PM
"I do not want to end up with an MKV file."
MKV is not a file format, it is a container.

With MakeMKV, you put your MP4 file and your audio file(s), subtitles, etc. in the container. They are still in their original form, intact and untouched, 100%. So you would use MakeMKV as a muxer, not an encoder.

That being said, I don't know why you couldn't get your AC3 to work with Yamb. I'm sure I've done that before, although MP4/AC3 are not the most "conventional" marriage.

ushere wrote on 5/10/2014, 8:42 PM
why: but it is important that the final method allows high quality images plus 5.1 sound out of curiosity?

it appears you're making your life much more difficult...
GeeBax wrote on 5/11/2014, 12:02 AM
5.1 is a selling point for the productions, rail fans want good quality images and the best sound they can get. It is what will help differentiate my programs from others. At present, most rail fan videos are either produced by amateurs or by ENG news guys looking to make as buck, and they hose the camera around without realising what the fans actually want.

I understand that MKV is a container, the issue is whether it will be recognised by the playback device. I have managed to produce the program as an MP4 before with 5.1 sound, just that is wasn't quite as good as it could have been. Yamb seems to be a pretty simple interface, nothing much to set or adjust, and on the web site the author claims to be able to support AC3.
ushere wrote on 5/11/2014, 1:21 AM
thanks for the clarification...

whilst i appreciate you want the best for your customers (and who doesn't?), surely good stereo would be equally as effective?

obviously i have no idea of your audience, but i would hazard a guess (based on my own research here in australia) that very few people would have 5.1 theatre systems - and certainly material delivered and / or viewed on pc significantly less...

still, i wish you ever success...
John_Cline wrote on 5/11/2014, 1:36 AM
If it were me, I'd save the 5.1 audio for the DVDs and Blu-ray discs since that is easy to do all from within Vegas, and just Handbrake for high quality MP4 video and stereo AAC audio for the USB sticks and web distribution.
GeeBax wrote on 5/11/2014, 2:06 AM
Yes John, I agree with your view on the distribution, but AC3 5.1 is meant to be compatible with stereo, so if I make the higher form it should be downward compatible.

Leslie, the need for 5.1 was a criteria developed by a marketing company who see the Asian market as being important for these programs, and in particular Japan. As it is not much harder for me to shoot in full surround, I figure it is worth adding that value to it. However, I agree with your research about here in Australia, I have only been in one home that had a surround sound theatre set-up, they seem to be very thin on the ground.

But that might have had more to do with my ability to get invited into houses in general :-)

Since the last post, I managed to re-visit TSMuxer and got it working just fine. I had not noticed a selection box that sets the frame rate, and it was set to a ridiculous setting. The result is now very pleasant looking. I will put it up on my web site soon for any who are interested to view it.

Thank you everyone for your help.


ushere wrote on 5/11/2014, 2:48 AM
But that might have had more to do with my ability to get invited into houses in general :-)

LOL! but seriously, i not only visit a lot of friends houses, but those of people in the business (tv, production, etc.,), and quite a few very upmarket homes (my wife's art collectors). i can probably count on two hands the 5.1 set ups i've seen, nearly all in the 'collectors' homes, and (having had the temerity to ask no less), all installed by high end av companies as a 'package'. when i've asked do they 'listen' to 5.1 i don't think anyone actually knew what i was talking about till i expained that was what the other speakers were for.
it was often pointed out that these awesome looking systems were hardly ever used as they (the owners) much preferred more 'intimate places' rather than the stage size living rooms these systems were in - favourite places to watch were the 'study' or 'family room' (making our living room look like the size of a clothes closet) on a 50>cm high end led panel, or in the kitchen (which wouldn't go amiss on a tv cook show).

i might add, and further to the 'levels' thread, i always try to checkout the screens people usually watch on; the (technical) people in the business are usually conscious of the adjustments that can be made and have fiddled to the extent that things look like they're supposed to. the less technical usually turn off 'demo', 'vivid', and other over the top store default settings, but the vast majority seem happy watching over sharp/saturated/enhanced vision with 'dynamic' audio which, at the end of the day makes my puny efforts at decent sound mixes and colour levels all rather pointless ;-(
GeeBax wrote on 5/11/2014, 4:10 AM
Oh, I don't disagree, I often point out that despite all the hard work you go to, people watch your precious efforts on the worst systems imaginable.

I remember many, many years ago when I used to sit in the music studios at Armstrong's watching and listening while the engineers mixed LRB, Farnham, Air Supply and others. The monitor speakers were huge JBL devices, about the size of a large refrigerator, and I once asked what sort of gear the engineers had at home. The reply was interesting: 'None. I cannot afford to buy speakers and amplifiers (Crown) like we have here, and nothing less would impress me, so I don't have anything".

But if I can (truthfully) put 'Full Dolby 5.1 Surround Sound' on the jacket label, and 'Shot with the Blackmagic Cinema Camera' it is there for those who have the equipment to appreciate it. It is snake oil, or Esso Extra (Put a Tiger in You Tank) material but hopefully it becomes a point of difference between what I shoot and others. The casual purchasers, or tourists, will see those labels and may be impressed, the rail enthusiasts will hopefully get the idea that I make better programs.

And, as I said earlier, I have now refined my camera equipment setup such that it is not hard to acquire the material in surround format, and Vegas makes the organisation of the tracks sooo easy.

For those who can be bothered, this is it: http://www.hollywoodfoundry.com/film%20files.htm

It is the last of the links.

So in the end, it is really more about bullsh*t than anything else. And I cannot justify it any more than that :-)

ushere wrote on 5/11/2014, 4:36 AM
i wish you all the sales you could hope for.... even if they don't realise what's gone into the making of....

btw - had a look at both samples - i think they look splendid, and the 'little' artifacting should be of no concern at at all.
musicvid10 wrote on 5/11/2014, 5:33 AM
I hope you realize that MP4 with AC3 audio will not play on the vast majority of Apple devices, iPhones, iPads, Apple TV, etc.

You need AAC audio for that.
Rob Franks wrote on 5/11/2014, 5:54 AM
I don't think AC3 is recognized on Android either.

AC3 works with video streamers, (most) computers, and BD/DVD, but not with portable hand devices.
musicvid10 wrote on 5/11/2014, 10:54 AM
"I understand that MKV is a container, the issue is whether it will be recognised by the playback device."

You don't get it. MKV was not suggested as a distribution format; it is the muxed, lossless intermediate that gets you from where you are to Handbrake, just as I described.

But that's all pretty much moot. Since it appears you are looking at a general distribution model, AC3 audio delivery is not going to work for you. With Apple's market share, you would be doomed to disaster. You will need AAC, whether 5.1 or stereo. You "might" see how fdk-aac 5.1 sounds after transcoding in Handbrake.

[EDIT] I did try some video with 5.1AC3 to fdk-aac in Handbrake, and it wasn't "quite" up to my standards.
Best of luck.
Rob Franks wrote on 5/11/2014, 12:10 PM
" With Apple's market share, you would be doomed to disaster."

The android share is bigger but the point still stands. AC3 is not a great choice for hand held devices.

Interesting though.... I did test MKV(ac3) and M2TS(ac3) and MTS(ac3) on my galaxy S3 and it all plays fine with moboplayer. It was pretty jumpy though, but then the test video was 1080p60