Does V7 mean CineForm Connect HD not needed?

Spot|DSE wrote on 9/12/2006, 9:39 AM

Yes and no.
If you'll be color correcting a lot, if you'll be keying/compositing, or if you'll be rendering to new tracks, then the CineForm format is significantly superior.
If you're doing mostly straightforward editing, little color correction, and no compositing, then working with .m2t is great.

NickHope wrote on 9/12/2006, 9:57 AM

Thanks Spot.

A lot of my work is just churning out videos without correction and effects, but now and then I have a lot of colour correction to do.

I'll give V7 a whirl and then try the Connect HD 15-day trial for comparison when the time is right.

By the way I'm reading version 2 of your "HDV: What you need to know" at the moment. It's very helpful.

cheers

Laurence wrote on 9/12/2006, 10:10 AM

Also, be aware that native m2t editing still takes a lot more CPU power than working with Cineform. For example, my 3.06 P4 is underpowered for m2t editing but works pretty well with Cineform avis

Wolfgang S. wrote on 9/12/2006, 10:22 AM

Well Douglas, after some tests I am not so sure any more, if Intermediates are really required in all cases you mention. For intensive compositing, yes for sure. For a color correction - I have not seen up to now any tests for that specific point, comparing the intermediate editing and the native editing.

For the performance point, pointed out here: the opposit is true. Cineform files show on Vegas 7 a lower number on fps during playback on a HDV2 project, compared with the playback of m2t 1080 50 if files. That was tested even on a raid 5, to be sure that harddisk does not become the bottleneck.

So, I expect an ongoing discussion when we will be able to edit native, and when not.

Spot|DSE wrote on 9/12/2006, 10:31 AM

For the performance point, pointed out here: the opposit is true. Cineform files show on Vegas 7 a lower number on fps during playback on a HDV2 project, compared with the playback of m2t 1080 50 if files.

Agreed, for now. Therebeing the reason I didn't mention it in my post. I suspect CineForm has something faster up their sleeve, but haven't seen it yet. However, overall as a format, it's still a superior format for color correction and compositing, based on what I've seen/tested thus far. Push chroma values hard on m2t and do the same with CineForm from the original source. You'll see reds bleed a bit, and blues shift slightly in the m2t, whereas CineForm holds together quite well.

DJPadre wrote on 9/12/2006, 10:31 AM

intriguing that capture straight to cineform isnt offered... wonder if its a lciensing thing or basic program architect limitation...

capturing to m2t, then converting to cineAVI is essential if you want good results..epeccially if you rlokin at weddings or shows and concerts which may need some spicing up...
The cost to that quality is the time it take to convert said material.. if shooting live event for hour upon hour, then its at this point that timeing issues will become a concern as you wait for you m2t's to convert to avis..

jwcarney wrote on 9/12/2006, 10:50 AM

Another issue is if you are working in different apps for animation and compositing, Cineform is a great intermediate codec to use between them. When you install ConnectHD with HDLink it's available to other apps for rendering output.

Laurence wrote on 9/12/2006, 11:49 AM

When I preview video with Cineform avis, I see lower CPU meter readings from the task manager window, but a minute or so into playback, audio becomes intermittant. With m2t files I see higher CPU readings but audio is consistant, though I do get dropped video frames. This is on an older P4 3.06. It seems for now that I'll be going back to Gearshift once the Vegas 7 installation problems with scripts are worked out.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 9/12/2006, 1:55 PM

Well, render tests have shown me that the Cineform codec does not behave as well over some render generations, then the Canopus HQ codec does. A lot of artefacts tend to pop up in the Cineform codec, what I have not seen in the Canopus HQ codec. The Canopus HQ codec has only 2 disadvantages - when you import a 16:9 file in Vegas, it is recognices as 4:3, and you have to adjust the PAR manually; and the second disadvantage is, that the Canopus HQ codec needs some small additional sharpening.

The Cineform codec has another disadvantage: I never have seen that there pops up a window, stating that you use the codec in an applicaton where it has not been licensed for. When I have a legal version of a codec on my PC, then I do not want the codec to come up with such restrictions.

In terms of render generations from m2t to m2t: not in every case it is terrible worse to edit native. As long as you can work with one render generation, and without a lot of compositing, native cutting of m2t is absolute fine with Vegas 7. Quality drop in the first render generation cannot be avoided, also not with Intermediates - since there is a measureable quality drop for rendering from m2t -> Intermediates in the first generation too.

Last but not least: there is still no support in Vegas 7 to capture to the Cineform codec on the fly - as Connect HD or Edius can do. And sorry, it takes a lot of additional time to render every m2t file after capturing.

Spot|DSE wrote on 9/12/2006, 2:36 PM

The Cineform codec has another disadvantage: I never have seen that there pops up a window, stating that you use the codec in an applicaton where it has not been licensed for. When I have a legal version of a codec on my PC, then I do not want the codec to come up with such restrictions.
I couldn't agree more. It's terribly irritating to experience this with some apps. If the codec is licensed and installed, and an app can see/read it, we should have access to it.

p@mast3rs wrote on 9/12/2006, 2:49 PM

Wasnt Cineform supposed to have a place on a drop down menu from the title bar or am I thinking of Cinescore?

jwcarney wrote on 9/12/2006, 7:23 PM

>>he Cineform codec has another disadvantage: I never have seen that there pops up a window, stating that you use the codec in an applicaton where it has not been licensed for. When I have a legal version of a codec on my PC, then I do not want the codec to come up with such restrictions.

I couldn't agree more. It's terribly irritating to experience this with some apps. If the codec is licensed and installed, and an app can see/read it, we should have access to it.<<

I didn't realize that, I've used it with AE and use HDLink for capture, which has worked out for me.

Would I be wrong in assuming that a nice Merom based laptop, realtime m2t editing and a Sony HDV cam would make a killer eng setup? Nightly news, or even Access Hollywood anyone?

Jay-Hancock wrote on 9/12/2006, 7:32 PM

Here's a strange thought.. Somebody point it out if this is a flawed thought.

If native HDV is faster and easier for editing than CFDI, but CFDI gives superior results for complex projects (no generation loss) that have compositing, etc... Maybe you could use the .m2t files for editing and previewing from the timeline, and then swap them at render time with the CFDI intermediates. This could be done with a script.

Pretty much the opposite of a normal workflow, but could possibly give you decent playback results while you're doing your editing work.

fldave wrote on 9/12/2006, 7:42 PM

Kind of like the m2t "becomes" the intermediate? Hope to experience that soon.

By the way, I've never had Cineform popup to tell me that I may be using an illegal codec. I've used them a lot in Vegas.

Jay-Hancock wrote on 9/12/2006, 8:11 PM

I think they were referring to it popping up in other applications (not Vegas).

Serena wrote on 9/13/2006, 12:32 AM

CF popping up?

I have other applications that require the Cineform codec and don't get any of the described "pop-ups". I did when the only copy was within V6. So I suspect that the problem is associated with not forking out the money for a licence.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 9/13/2006, 12:34 AM

Yes, that takes place in other applications only, not in Vegas.

For example, I have tried to use the Canopus Procoder Express to encode a lot of m2t files to the Cineform Intermediate. That idea was attractive to me, given the fact that the Procoder Express is a very fast tool for rendering a lot of files. However, it did not work, due to the codec limitation that I have mentioned.

That does not mean that this restriction will take place in all other applications. I have not tried AE, for example.

For the future workflow: well, I am still thinking about that. Render tests have shown me that rendering native m2t to m2t must not be worse really. A lot of people stated, that they do not see a significant difference, if you do not touch compositing. For projects where we stay within the first render generation, that offers us a workflow where you edit native m2t material in the timeline for most parts of the video. Only the few events, where additional corrections (keying, compositing) is required, could be encoded to the intermediate codec.

A killer to such a kind of workflow would be, if the color correction is as worse als Douglas stated. I a lot of projects I do a significant amount of color correction.

Hmmm, still an area for additional testing and learning, I think.

BUT - for the first time we have now a verison of Vegas, that allows us to manage 2000+ m2t clips in the timeline. That is a big advantage. And for the frist time we have now a version of Vegas, that allows us to have a real time preview that is good enough for native m2t files. That is another big advantage. Only that two facts make Gearshift realy usefull, only that two facts offers us new possibilities for an impproved HDV workflow. A good development, I think.

David Newman wrote on 9/13/2006, 9:19 AM

Pops up --nah!

If you use the licensed the Connect HD product you can use it anywhere without interruption. If you see a popup you are using the Sony licensed version which is for Vegas only. Remember if you upgrade Vegas, you need to re-install Connect HD to get the latest codec. Unfortunately the old VfW interface don't support multiple instances of the codec, so you only get the last one installed (a Window limitation with VfW.) Note: even under the Vegas license you can read and play CineForm AVI anywhere, so it is not very restrictive.

As for performance, check out 3.2 build 26, up later today which adds threaded to that old VfW interface -- get better use of multicores.

David Newman
CTO, CineForm

P.S. You know you are using the new Connect HD codec if is it version v2.7.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 9/13/2006, 9:29 AM

"If you see a popup you are using the Sony licensed version which is for Vegas only."

David, sure I use the Vegas 7 version. What I have said ist true for this version only.

However, I understand that it will be possible to use the codec version from the Connect HD trial in other application too - great.

And I will be keen to test if the playback performance in Vegas 7 is better with Cineform files, using 3.2 build 26.

That are two other interessting points, that I will incorporate in our Vegas 7 introduction page in German.

http://videotreffpunkt.com/tutorials/Vegas%207/index.html

Thanks a lot.

Jay-Hancock wrote on 9/13/2006, 9:31 AM

A few more details can be found in the DVinfo forum here.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 9/13/2006, 10:17 AM

Thank you for the link, Jay. Just a comment to that thread there - it is an illusion to think, that there is no quality loss during the first render process - so when rendering from m2t -> Intermediate. The loss in quality is measureable here too.

MH_Stevens wrote on 11/2/2006, 2:52 PM

With my 3.06 I see a marked deterioration in editing and previewing with Cineform in V7. If Cineform do improve they will only put it in a newer version and never help the poor sods who bought a utility only to have the host program make it somewhat obsolete. Cineform editing now in V7 is comparable to m2t editing and I imagine if I moved up to a 2-core machine then the answer to this posts question would be that we do not any longer need Cineform.

Michael