Double system sound and multi-camera recording

vicmilt wrote on 2/28/2010, 1:57 PM
Hi gang -
As you might know, I'm getting up to professional speed with my new Canon 5D2.
It's biggest problem is lousy sound - scratch track quality only.
Here's a 'quickee' test I did just now.
It's nothing more than a "proof of concept"
We shot it in my kitchen while my wife was frying bacon.

We used the Canon 5D2, the Zoom H4n, a Sennheiser short shotgun and synced the whole mess automatically with Plural Eyes Software.

First - the Zoom, Canon and automatic sync software worked extraordinarily well.

I still haven't read the Zoom manual, so the record levels were a bit low, but the point is that the system works to perfection.

I turned on the recorder about two or three minutes BEFORE I shot the video and just left it running.
It was hard-wired into the shotgun mike with standard XLR cable.
The recorder has two on-board stereo mikes that are fabulous for location ambience. It also has another two isolated XLR tracks. We used one for the test. You could also use radio mikes.

I turned the camera on and off four or five times, allowing about 20-30 seconds in between each on and off.
With the on-camera mike you can clearly hear the frying food in the background. This is not necessarily a good thing.

Since we were only about 4' from the camera, the built-in mike works very well.
Under any other circumstance it sucks. It picks up the slightest camera noise (like zooming or focusing) and has lousy sound to start with.

But the isolated Sennheiser, will be the usual Much Better (especially when I learn how to set the volume on the Zoom correctly).

The main point is that the sync works perfectly.
We are recording digital WAV files at 44kz (48kz is available also, as are MP3 and some other more esoteric options), built into the recorder.

While we did some "clap slates" the fact is that Plural Eyes found this take w/o ANY reference in the middle of the six minutes of continuous recorded sound - totally automatically. That part was magic. It looks like you can now just turn on your recorder and leave it running. Multi-camera shooting will never be the same.

My buddy Charles sez "movies without sync" - but what he meant was sync without slates - wow.

The whole auto-sync process was very fast - maybe 30 or 40 seconds.
While admittedly this wasn't a huge project, nevertheless the software automatically found the correct sound in the middle of six minutes of recorded sound.

The dual system sound works perfectly... and without the need for slates.
I think if I was shooting thirty or forty feet from the subject, I'd use a slate, "Just in case".

Check it out:


--
Victor Milt, DGA
www.VictorMilt.com

Comments

xberk wrote on 2/28/2010, 2:15 PM
Hey Vic. That seemed to work. But double system sound (sync without cables) relied on some form of interlock that kept the camera and the sound recorder going at a specific constant rate of speed. How is this being done? Will it drift in long takes? - Paul

Paul B .. PCI Express Video Card: EVGA VCX 10G-P5-3885-KL GeForce RTX 3080 XC3 ULTRA ,,  Intel Core i9-11900K Desktop Processor ,,  MSI Z590-A PRO Desktop Motherboard LGA-1200 ,, 64GB (2X32GB) XPG GAMMIX D45 DDR4 3200MHz 288-Pin SDRAM PC4-25600 Memory .. Seasonic Power Supply SSR-1000FX Focus Plus 1000W ,, Arctic Liquid Freezer II – 360MM .. Fractal Design case ,, Samsung Solid State Drive MZ-V8P1T0B/AM 980 PRO 1TB PCI Express 4 NVMe M.2 ,, Wundiws 10 .. Vegas Pro 19 Edit

farss wrote on 2/28/2010, 2:35 PM
Some pretty bad audio there, too much room. You need a better mic than the 416 in that environment.
So you can see your audio levels and set them correctly get a Sound Devices preamp.
Beachtek make an adaptor for the 5D that solves most of the problems if you want to carry less kit. It mounts very nicely on the bottom of the camera.

Don't know why you'd record with the Zoom at 16/44.1K, it does 24/48K, use it.

Bob.

vicmilt wrote on 2/28/2010, 2:48 PM
As usual, Bob "one-ups" me with even MORE better information...
and as usual... I listen, learn and apply.

Re: the beachtek - it seems to me that you're still going into the Canon which as I understand it, doesn't really have a great recording system to begin with. Further I personally don't like that little box on the bottom of the camera. Probably just a bad vestigal memory from my VX1000/Beachtek days. On the other hand, you DO lose the need for any sort of sync-ing. And this report in NO WAY condemns the Beachtek. They make good stuff - I'm just experimenting with this.

But let's face it - the Zoom is SO sexy... so I'm going to run with that for now.
BTW - the Zoom HAS a set of input levels - and individually set for each track, but you'd have to read the manual for that sort of knowledge.

I'm going to... I promise.

... and c'mon - I'm an easily excited guy - it was a super-rough first test - simply proving it could be done. I wanted to show my buddies (all of you) what's the latest thing out there - tha's all.

I'll post the first footage that we do where I actually CARE what it sounds like, asap. Hopefully I'll have a sound guy on that one.

v
Serena wrote on 2/28/2010, 7:42 PM
Gee, I don't know..... looks like that was shot in 2D. None of my polaroid glasses could get it to 'pop'

I got the impression that syc was out by a frame, but you'll have checked and probably just YouTube. I had assumed that PuralEyes was just hype, for picking sync points without point sounds (e.g. clap) is usually difficult enough.
Yoyodyne wrote on 2/28/2010, 8:34 PM
Glad Pluraleyes is working for you vic. I've been having great luck with it. The zoom at 24bit 48k has been giving me better audio than I can get with a camera and Pluraleyes makes syncing audio a non event. Select the clips, hit the button and get some coffee.

TimTyler wrote on 2/28/2010, 8:46 PM
I can also attest to PluralEyes' value.

Just today I used it to sync up seven hours of interviews where the cameras were a 7D and a HPX300, both at 29.97. PluralEyes had a 95% success rate with the media after about five minutes of churning.

I recommend the "Try Extra Hard" setting.

I was surprised that, even though I locked my A-track in Vegas, PluralEyes still spaced out some of the A-track clips. I would have rather it just manipulated the B-track to match.
Serena wrote on 2/28/2010, 9:19 PM
So, pretty clever then. How does it determine sync?

EDIT: ah, less intelligent than I imagined it had to be. Works from a guide track recorded with the video. So not quite syncing independently recorded double system sound (as we did sometimes with film with no camera audio). I'll try that out, after all.
Rory Cooper wrote on 2/28/2010, 10:17 PM
Vic, I recently got a copy of your “Light it Right” absolutely loved your fluid approach to lighting . It made me realize I was too regimental in my approach toward video lighting

I studied art and worked for a while as a finished artist and illustrator/ visualizer ,Art director for Grey Group and BBDO in S.A. so had some experience with lighting in art.
But you helped me carry it through into video. For some unknown reason I had separated the two in my mind

So I now have a rehabilitated zeal and enthusiasm for getting better quality shots. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with us


Also got your Director/Cameraman DVD to sharpen and develop new skills and learned about “good manners” on set among many other things
You are not just a Pro but a Gentleman also

So with your spirit and abilities I expect we will see some fluid audio processes developing as well

Rory

vicmilt wrote on 3/1/2010, 5:06 AM
xfx -

Thanks so much for the kind words. Truth be known I've gotten hundreds of similar letters. Let's face it - three point lighting is dead. Just turn on your TV and take a look. There's not a feature or commercial that uses this tired and outdated style of lighting. I'm glad you've learned some important and useful concepts in lighting and directing. Now get out there and win me some prizes!

Meanwhile, I'm pleased to say that I will be lecturing at two seminars at NAB in Las Vegas.

April 13th, once again I'll be teaching Lighting Techniques and Documentary Production (from concept to distribution).

If any of you are out there, be sure to look me up!