Don't mean to hijack your thread but just wondering if anybody has successfully rendered out a project of more than 4.7gigs from Vegas5, brought it in DVDA2 for preparation and burning to DL using Nero and have it played successfully through a set top dvd player.
I'm thinking of getting a Sony Double Layer burner within the next few days. Thanks!

Frank

Be careful.

You need authoring software which will allow you to assign the layer-break (the point that marks the end of Layer 0 and the start of Layer 1). Usually, this point is chosen with a view to minimising the impact of that momentary pause sometimes seen as the laser refocuses. Typically, this will be a static scene or one with little movement.

Without this facility the burner will just churn along until the physical end of Layer 0 and then move upstairs. Depending on the sensitivity of your equipment (beg pardon!) this might result in the movie coming to a halt rather than switching layers. This seems to be because there is no layer-break entry in the affected VOB's (the video file) associated IFO file. The flag in the IFO file performs some role which possibly involves cacheing and readying mechanisms in the DVD player. Your computer player will almost certainly play the disc back perfectly. The stand-alone... mmm

So the question is: Do you feel lucky. Well, do ya!

Give it a whirl and let us know what happens.

-Pete


Tip: make sure you use Verbatim media. Ritek D-L dye is currently not good enough.

You don't need to have an authoring app to create a DL disc. In fact, there are few apps that do include this feature (layer break setting) that actually interact directly with the burner to set the layer break precisely where you put it during the burn. Apple's dvd studio pro 3 is the only one I know of that will allow for this. The other apps require a DLT and output each layer to tape and have the entire project replicated to have the layer break set in the authoring app respected. Any authoring app that will allow you to build a disc beyond a DVD-5 limits can potentially be used with Nero and similar third party apps that support DL burns. You build your project to audio_ts and video_ts folders, and import the folders into the burning app. The burning app then sets the layer break as it sees fit-- and more often than not, it won't coinicide with what one chose while authoring(if that option was even available, which it isn't with DVD-Architect).

Jim

Could you tell me what equipment and software you used to create your DL DVDs, and the success (or otherwise) of playback?

My experience with the stuff you cite leads me to the conclusion that it is a very good way of producing very expensive coasters. In my opinion, DL isn't yet ready for prime time.

Many thanks

-Pete

Likewaise could you share what you've been using to burn expensive coasters, so that the rest of us can avoid it?

Thanks,
--Scott

Who's burning expensive coasters? My response was in regards to layer setting with authoring apps that allow this and the current interface with the DL burners. The layer setting within the app is not respected (for the most part, unless one is using DVDSP 3 from Apple) by the burner. Those who are burning these kinds of discs use apps that both allow and don't allow for layer switch points (and whether it's OTP or PTP)--it doesn't matter, because the burning app chooses the switch point. One just builds the project, and as long as it doesn't exceed a DVD-9 in size, it's supposed to work. I agree this new frontier in burning is much like the first launch of recordable dvd's just a few years ago. Any of us who were doing this back then know there were (and continue to be--albeit less) pitfalls. Recordable DL media is expensive, and appears to have a poorer track record in general in regards to set top acceptance (vs current single layer media). There are things that can be done to improve it (like changing the book type setting from +R to ROM--which the Pioneer AO8 automatically does), but the jury is still out as to how well they will actually perform on a wide variety of set top players. In addition, you can't precisely determine the layer switch, and because of that, the chances are the switch won't be 'seamless'. If you register at Canopus US forums, there are several threads from those who have done this successfully (unfortunately you can't get to most of these posts unless you are registered). My post wasn't about advocating anyone should or shouldn't do it, it was to point out the fact you don't need an app that allows for setting the layer switch to make such a disc.

Jim

Pete is apprently burning expensive coasters. I was curious as to what he's using to do his testing.

The burner is a Pioneer 108, rev. 1.14
Stand-alone is a Pioneer 545
Software used includes: DVDDecrypter, CloneDVD2 and Nero 6.6
In all cases the video type is PAL

If you use DVDDecrypter to make an ISO image of a commercial DVD and then use DVDDecrypter to burn that same ISO, the resulting disc is an exact copy - what we computer fellas many years ago used to call a bit copy.
You can tell that the layer break has occurred some time before the physical end of Layer 0 by looking at the dye side of the disc and noting the unburnt area around the perimeter.
Such a copy will play perfectly and be indistinguishable from the original, i.e. if the stand-alone player can play the original, it can also play the copy.

If you use DVDDecrypter, or similar software such as CloneDVD, to rip the original's files to the hard drive and at the same time remove the layer-break flag from the relevant IFO file, you have effectively obtained a set of files equivalent to DVDA's output of a very large home movie.
You now burn these using Nero, CloneDVD - anything really - and allow the hardware to decide where the transition should occur. This time you will find no unburnt area around the perimeter, suggesting that the burn proceeded to the physical end of Layer 0 before starting on Layer 1.
Moreover, the disc won't play.
It will be fine up to the 'new' layer break and then it will stop. Sometimes, very rarely, it will struggle for a while and then jump to the beginning of the first chapter following the break. Either way it will ruin your viewing enjoyment.
The word is that if you have one of those very cheap Far East players, which contain computer components, you might be all right. Then again, you might not.

The broader question at the moment is: is it worth it? There is a theoretical improvement in quality (from not having to use something like DVD Shrink, etc. to compress a DVD that is too large to fit on a single-layer disc), but in practice, with domestic equipment, can you actually see it? Really.
Until the price of DL media comes down with a bang, or better still, RW dual-layer appears (what happened to those, we wonder), my advice is to give the stuff a wide berth.

Jim: Your use of words like 'supposed' lead me to believe that you have no direct experience of dual layer burning. Is that right? If not, perhaps you would let us all have the benefit of your own trials.

FrankieP: Don't forget to come back with your results, too.

-Pete

It's supposed to be Nero deciding where to put the layer break; not the DVD burner. On another thread in this forum it was mentioned that you had to select DVD-9 within Nero and that it would also display a graphic showing where the layer break is going to happen - did you see anything like this?

Once I get my burner I was planning on using CopyToDVD for my testing.

Thanks,
--Scott

Nero does have a sort of graphic ruler along the bottom of the application, with a yellow marker indicating the size of Layer 0 and a red marker showing the capacity of both layers.
You can't 'use' it though. You can't drag the yellow marker about to position the break where you want it.

One day there'll be burning software that allows you to pan back and forth over the area of the movie within which a layer-break is possible and to position the break at a point you determine to be optimum. The IFO file will be amended accordingly and then the burn of Layer 0 will cease at the point you've chosen and begin on Layer 1.

Until that happens, the process seems inherently unreliable. You may get a good disc or you may not. It depends on too many factors - and is currently too expensive - to recommend.

Having said that, I do hear that CopyToDVD makes a good fist of it, although I haven't tried it. Let us know how you fare.

-Pete

I use DVDSP 3, so I don't have any personal experience with burning otherwise. I can only report what I have read from others. I completely agree with you that this may be a good way to burn coasters. My point was that authoring apps that allow for setting the layer break don't translate that info (except DVDSP 3) directly to the burner. So having that feature (layer break setting) doesn't necessarily help you anymore than if you don't have that feature. I don't disagree that the current process leaves much to be desired, and at the price point of DL media, I'm not sure how many people will want to experiment. There are those who claim it has worked very well in their hands (not using DVDSP3), and the process by which they do their authoring and burning has been posted elsewhere. There is a burning app that gives you direct control, but it ain't cheap:

http://www.gearsoftware.com/LayerBreakPoint.cfm

Jim

Adobe has just released an update for Encore that supports DL burns directly from within Encore, and it preserves the set break point. You can't output to folders to do this, it either has to be an image file, or direct burn from within Encore.

Jim