DVD Image quality

Widetrack wrote on 2/6/2010, 4:54 PM
Please excuse me if this has already been gone over here: I suspect it has, but I guess I'm not asking the right questions in Search.

I did a DVD project last year using DV footage. I just watched it for the first time on an HD TV and I was shocked to see that it looked horrible--all kinds of drop-shadow-like ghost images and ugly fuzziness.

I used an old but (I thought) good analog monitor while producing it and it looked fine there, as it did on other analog test screens.

If I make another DVD project for DVD using stills and DV footage, how do I make sure it looks good on 720 and 1080 TVs? Does this have something to do with rendering is some HD format, even though I'm using stills and DV footage?

Can anyone tell me where to start on figuring this out?

I'm still using V 8.0c. Does that matter?

Comments

TheHappyFriar wrote on 2/6/2010, 4:59 PM
it will never look as good as HD. But, stuff I've rendered to DVD looks good on HD TV's. I normally make custom render templates for the max bitrate @ the length I need.
John_Cline wrote on 2/6/2010, 5:24 PM
First of all, standard DVDs can only contain standard definition video.

Why your DVD looked so bad on that particular HDTV could be due to any number of factors, most of which are probably beyond your control. I suspect that the DVD player / HDTV combination had a less than stellar upscaling algorithm. Standard DVDs played with my PS3 to my HDTV via HDMI look far better than the same DVDs played on a regular DVD player using component analog and the HDTVs upscaling.

Otherwise, all you can do is use the highest possible bitrate for the length of your video. If your video program is under 74 minutes or so you can use a CBR of 8,000,000. If it's under 64 minutes, you could use CBR at 9,000,000. (Both of these assuming that you use 192kbps AC3 audio.) Be sure you run the quality slider up to "31."
TheHappyFriar wrote on 2/6/2010, 5:28 PM
I'd say my BD player upconverts much better then any upconverting DVD player I've seen (both connected HDMI)
johnmeyer wrote on 2/6/2010, 5:36 PM
How do other DVDs look on this HD monitor? I am talking about other DVDs you have made, or at least DVDs that contain video material (as opposed to a Hollywood film). I ask this because the first step is to determine whether the problem is specific to this one DVD, or whether there is something in either the settings on your DVD player or TV set that is causing this.

The encoding process itself should not introduce any artifacts like those you describe (you are using one of the MPEG-2 "DVD Architect" templates in Vegas to encode the video, right?). If you are seeing "drop shadow" video, that suggests a contrast or gamma correction that was incorrect, either because your original monitor was not calibrated correctly (the one you used when you made the DVD) or perhaps your new HD monitor is not calibrated correctly.

Generally speaking, when everything is set up correctly, SD DVDs should look pretty good on HD TVs.
Widetrack wrote on 2/6/2010, 7:55 PM
I had to do some reading to get up to speed on some basics, and now I understand that a very likely cause is that my player is old and almost certainly does not have any upscaling. (Hey, I've been in the woods for awhile. Had to catch up.) Nor is it connected via either Component or HDMI, but rather, (gulp) mere composite.

The real problem is that a potential customer complained, which caused me to check things out.

I'll put my own house in order and see if correcting any of the above works. If, as I hope, upscaling and connections are the problem, I'll have to catechize her gently, then lead her to The New Digital Truth, and a large purchase.

It will be a challenge.

Thanks to all for the input (pun intended). You cleared up a lot for me.

johnmeyer wrote on 2/6/2010, 10:09 PM
I don't think upscaling will make much difference. Also, connecting via composite will not, by itself, cause a problem. However, as I have found out with my new HDTV, each input on the monitor must be calibrated separately.
TheHappyFriar wrote on 2/7/2010, 4:55 AM
composite WILL cause a problem if the cable has something wrong with it. Could be getting interference, have a cut (mice/cat/dog), etc.
Widetrack wrote on 2/7/2010, 11:24 PM
I swapped out the cables and connected via the component ports. there may have been a slight improvement, but type still looks awful, stills are bad and exhibit horrible aliasing when I zoom or move them, which is a lot, and normal video footage looks fuzzy, blocky, and just generally crappy.

I have a Toshiba SD2800 (+/- 8 yrs old), which does have Component outs, but not HDMI and no upscaling. Commercial DVDs look very good. I'll have to burn one with the recommended CBP and other settings.

What would I need to do to callibrate the component inputs on the nonitor?

Both the old the new cables are ok.

John: I will take a look at other DVDs' I've made on the LCD. But you said ". . . DVDs you have made, or at least DVDs that contain video material (as opposed to a Hollywood film)."

I may be misconstruing your words, but are you suggesting that DVDs produced with Vegas/DVDA would be necessarily inferior to Hollywood stuff?

PerroneFord wrote on 2/7/2010, 11:34 PM
"I may be misconstruing your words, but are you suggesting that DVDs produced with Vegas/DVDA would be necessarily inferior to Hollywood stuff?"

Yes, and for numerous reasons. Like the fact their source material is infinitely better. Their workflow is likely better. Their encoding hardware/software is better. Etc.
johnmeyer wrote on 2/7/2010, 11:51 PM
are you suggesting that DVDs produced with Vegas/DVDA would be necessarily inferior to Hollywood stuff?"No, not necessarily. With the proper attention to detail, there is no reason you can't produce DVDs that would approach what is done on Hollywood movie DVDs. Vegas/DVDA clearly have enough control over various parameters that they can do great things. The differences in encoding between the MPEG-2 encoder that Sony licenses from MainConcept and the hardware-assisted pro encoders used by the big boys are relatively small compared to the big problems you are describing.

The main reason I talked about the difference is that most Hollywood DVDs are from film and are therefore 23.976 progressive, whereas your source is interlaced video. These two things encode quite differently and give a different look.

If you are truly seeing ghosts, I wonder if you made some sort of mistake, like trying to encode your video as progressive instead of interlaced. So many people seem to think that progressive is "better," but it is not. If your source is interlaced, leave it that way when you encode.
Widetrack wrote on 2/8/2010, 12:32 AM
John:

Wouldn't an encoding mistake like that show up on an analog monitor?

That's what's driving me to distraction. This thing looks darn good on analog monitors.

I guess the best way to check is to plug my archive disk in then highlight the final MPEG2 in the Vegas explorer to see what it says.

Widetrack wrote on 2/8/2010, 2:48 PM
Another question comes to mind, assuming for the moment that the problem is some incompatibility or non-functionality of my DVD player and LCD screen.

How the heck do I communicate to potential--or actual--customers that they can't watch my DVDs on their cool new flatpanel unless they have . . .what, a blu-ray player or upscaling DVD player that works with their monitor, but they won't know in advance because their setup will play hollywood stuff fine, though mine may look awful?

I don't mean to sound petty--especially in the face of not yet having checked to see if I've made some incredibly boneheaded blunder in my encoding--but this strikes me as a dicey proposition.

I just dug out an old archive disk and am going to suss out my project and rendering settings.

Thanks for the help.
johnmeyer wrote on 2/8/2010, 3:05 PM
At the risk of repeating myself, the problems you have described don't (I think) have anything to do with having -- or not having -- an upscaling DVD player. You either created the DVD with settings that were not standard or, more likely, your new TV is calibrated far differently, and in a manner that accentuates certain things on your DVD.

If you own VideoRedo or one of the Womble products, perhaps you could take one of the VOB files from the offending DVD, cut out a 30-second segment of video that doesn't look correct, and post it. I'd be happy to look at it and see if I can spot something unusual.

I think both of the products mentioned above have free trials, and you could use the free trial to do what I suggest. If you use Womble Video Wizard, you just drag the VOB file to the timeline. Use the cursor to scrub the timeline until you find an appropriate "in" point, and then click on the scissors tool. Keep going for thirty seconds or so, find an "out" point, and click on the scissors tool again. Click on the events both before and after the cuts and press the DEL key to get rid of them. Then, right click on the track header and choose to remove all gaps. Finally, click on the little red "export" button in the lower right corner of the interface and export your cut file, naming it with the extension "MPG". Post that on YouSendIt or GetDropBox or any other ftp site you want to use.
Widetrack wrote on 2/8/2010, 10:20 PM
John:

Thank you for your offer.

I will download VideoRedo and send you a snippet as you suggested..