Edges are blurred between the hair and background, eyes and facial features which were sharp on DV original are a little fuzzy, color not as bright, lower contrast.

OK, sometime I feel like such a dummy. Or maybe I'm lazy. Who knows. Then maybe I'm questioning if Vegas is the format I need. I have an XL1s focusing issues and all. using Shot the local Jazz contest, excellent lighting a Sony monitor so it was in focus. Captured via firewire, edited, rendered mpg2 with all settings at max, DVDA2, 1X, -R. Looks like home video. Some home video is OK but it should be better. Don't know anyone else personnally using Vegas 4, 5, 6..etc Could be me. Could be the software, could be the settings. I was about to recommend this as our corporate software but having second thoughts. I'm just trying to get my bearings here. Do I need a capture card, do I need to set something else. What happened? Truely I say unto you....its never been good enough in my estimation. Do people actually use this professionally? If so, then why don't my pic look that good?

Rick, I had an XL1s and I had absolutely no focus issues whatsoever. If the lens did have back focus problems, you should send to Canon and get it resolved.

Too, I've used Vegas+DVDA, so I doubt seriously it's the software. The two, XL1s and Vegas, have given me stunning images--sharp, crisp, vivid colors--no problems. Perhaps you need to re-evaluate your shooting style and/or work flow in post. See if you can nail down what the real problem is.

Thanks for the encouragement Jay. All I really asking here is whats the best method for DVD production. I really don't think there's something wrong with the camera. I'm always pleased with the playback. (I still think the focus is strange but lets just leave that) Its just seems something happens between there and the final product. Is it just TV? Are there settings I don't know about? Spot said the high quality settings on rendering didn't improve the image. Well, that's seems to be true. I went from a 1.8G mpg2 file which translates into a 3.7 G file on DVDA2. Yet there's no improvement in the video. I'm trying to figure out which step has the greatest loss. Is it the capture, the rendering or the DVD production. I don't think you guys can answer this question so it comes down to: Is there some secret way to capture other than IEEE firewire, are there settings I'm overlooking in rendering, or is there something special I a have failed to do in DVA? Just trying to get at what seems to me as an obvious issue. BUt, I don't seen anyone else complaining.

Not that I'm any fan of the XL1 but Jay's right. Good looking video is not the product of the camera or the editing system. It starts before the light and sound gets to the camera, it's significantly influenced by how the camera is used and then by how the images are cut together and the sound mixed.
All the things that you're looking at for the solution are only tools, better tools might make the job easier, they rarely make the outcome better.
Even the cheapest DV camcorders can turn in quite acceptable images under the right conditions, with an XL1 you should be able to get pretty close to the limits of DV25. Certainly if your camera has a back focus issue then things can get tricky, I'd suggest you check that out, if it's a problem get it fixed. Having the point of focus wrong in a shot is one of the things that is visually very distracting.
Bob.

Rick, I'm sorry. There is no secret, at least I'm not aware of one. Without being there and seeing what you're doing (or not doing), it would be next impossible for me to say what's happening. There's a whole bunch of folks here that are a lot smarter than I am. They don't have to be there to see, like I would.

So you capture your video via firewire. You edit it in Vegas. Do you render to an .avi first or do you render straight to mpeg2 from the timeline? When rendering to mpeg2, which setting do you use? You should be using the "DVD Architect NTSC Video Stream" template, if you're using DVDA.

Once the image is encoded in the camera capturing is just the process of making a bit for bit copy, no magic will change that.
Unless you apply a FX then Vegas just copies that bit for bit into the final video.
I'd suggest comparing a tape played back out of the camera against a tape printed out of Vegas. Use the same connection and monitor!
Be aware that DVD players do shift the contrast of video slightly. How you connect the DVD player to the TV also makes a BIG difference, we have a RGB feed from the player to the TV.

Bob.

I agree with Robert, once you're in the digital domain there's not much you can do to add or subtract from your original quality, as long as you are not using fx, filters, etc., to deliberately alter the "look". A lot of what you are describing sounds like NTSC coding artifacts (edge blur, chroma bleed). Check your DVD player connection, as Robert says. If you are using a composite connection, that would degrade your pictures from the original DV. Use component, or S-Video at least.

With the DVD Architect settings, I have notice some slight chroma phase shift and the occasional motion artifact but, in general, the DVD's produced with the standard MPEG settings are very close to the original DV.

Thanks for your responses. I've been down this road before. Read alot and tried stuff out. Better lighting works wonders of course but the stage was lit well and from the monitor everything looked great.

Farss: I will print to tape and compare as you suggest. RGB is a good thought. Currently I'm feeding composite video from DVD to TV.

I need to make some comparisons with other systems. Get someone to render a piece of mini DV with FCP or Premiere. Hoping there won't be a difference Maybe that will put this to rest. Then again, I might learn something.

Jay, are you going to buy a XL2?

RickK,
I'm not a pro but one thing not mentioned here has helpled me get a better looking outcome in the past. Have you tried the 2 pass option in the MPEG-2 DVD NTSC template (custom button) under the video tab (box to the right of varible bit rate)? This made a visable difference to a wedding video we did. Spot tells me that it really doesn't do much for slide shows but for videos with movement, it can have a significant effect. As for all of the other comments, totally agree that what goes in is the main determinant. However, all things being equal, 2 pass can help in some cases. Hope this helps.
Randy

yeah, I tried two pass last night. In this situation, I didn't see a difference except DVDA2 ran a lot faster.

Thanks for the input.

Rick

Yes, Rick, I already have. It's an extraordinary camera and delivers extraordinary images!

Rick -

What percentage of your cinematography is done with a tripod?

v

Rick said: "ts never been good enough in my estimation. Do people actually use this professionally? If so, then why don't my pic look that good? "

Rulng out anything with your camera or shooting as a problem, reading your comments most of what you said sounds subjective. By what method are you comparing source to finished product?

Have you showed the finished project to anyone WITHOUT telling them what you think is wrong to see if they confirm your opinion?

Have you fiddled with the settings, bumping up the bitratre before burning the DVD? Trying burning a DVD with the D E F A U L T settings if you haven't already.

What are the project settings (file/properties)? Depending on source materail, you may notice some differences between the motion blur type. What do you have it set to?

What device are you viewing the finished product on?

If a TV, what type, CRT, LCD, Plasma?

Hot button issue ===> Is it calibrated, if so how did you do it?

One VERY common thing many, many people do with their TV is make the assumption that cranking up the focus or sharpness control as far is it will go will give the best picture.

WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!

For most sets the sweet spot is typically between a third to half the max setting. See my tutorial for more specifics. You got to adjust off a high quality test pattern.

da wa ah ya. Hi guys.

So we're all there are we? Almost didn't expect anyone to respond.

Yeah, I need something to compare to. I want reassurance this is the best I can do. Yeah, subjective. Yeah, I need a compatriot to view it. Going to pursue this next week. No, not adjusting the TV to sharp..no,niet. non.

Yes, I've tried bumping the bit rate all over the board but mostly default. Tried the double pass, tried slowing down the write speed.

And it could be the TV. It's a TV with a tube..not plasma, CRT, LCD. Feed is composite. ( Wife wants a new one anyway)

And there's a whol\e bunch of things I need to do..some your suggestions some that just seem obvious right now. By the way, I use a tripod with fulid head so that's not it.

Was it Jay with the XL2? Does the XL1s have a backfocus? Can we go back to that for a moment. Can't find backfocus in the manual. Is this an issue I missed? When you focus the XL1s and then zoom in, no matter how slow you zoom, it drifts out of focus. This has nothing to do with this posting. Just interested if there's a fix for this short of buying the manual lens.

"
So you capture your video via firewire. You edit it in Vegas. Do you render to an .avi first or do you render straight to mpeg2 from the timeline? When rendering to mpeg2, which setting do you use? You should be using the "DVD Architect NTSC Video Stream" template, if you're using DVDA."

Jay,

Usually don't render to .avi first. Doing this repeatably has gotten me in to lots of trouble. you can only do this once I found. Doing it twice can lead to some interesting and unpleasant artifacts. Learned my lesson. Rarely render to avi first, only when I have an exceptionally long project and fear stuff will get out of sync. Usually render directly to mpeg2 using the template you describe. (Sounds like nested veg might help with that sort of thing in the future. )

I'm going to get some local help next week.

Rick

I don't think render to AVI first will cause you much loss, of all the NLEs pretty thorough tests show Vegas to be the best of the bunch plus if there's no FXs being applied then what gets rendered out is a bit copy of what the camera recorded.
However due to the difference in sampling between DV and DVD you might get a slightly better result going straight from the TL when you've applied FXs like CC and from graphics.

All that said and done though if all you've got to look at your work with is feeding a composite signal into a TV then you're seeing a pretty flawed view of things anyway.

Getting back to your camera, if as you zoom the point of focus shifts then you've sure got a back focus issue. Standard way I set focus is to zoom right in, focus and then zoom back out. If the camera has back focus problem then you're perhaps in deep doggy doo doing that. I was going to suggest simply avoiding zooming (many, many movies are shot without a single zoom lens in sight) but it does come in handy for checking focus.

Good interchangeable lenses do have a BF adjustment but obviously your Canon doesn't. Other issue I've heard of with the XL1 is the thing shifting focus when in manual focus, that's a real cause for concern. Still no camera is perfect, and everyone I've met that owned a XL1 wouldn't swap it for anything else. They've all had and learnt to deal with these issues so again it's not what you use but how you use it. I'd suggest spending some quiet time with your camera and getting to know its foibles. I'm sure there's a forum somewhere just for XL1 owners, that'd be a good place to look for help too.

Bob.

The next time you encode to MPEG-2 in Vegas, just before you click on OK to start the encode, click instead on the Custom button. This will bring up the "Custom Template" dialog. Click on the "Video" tab at the bottom of this dialog. Please report back here what setting the Video Quality slider is set to, and what number you have entered for the "Average (bps)" setting.

I have spent a LOT of time creating test cases using the Vegas encoder and the external MainConcept encoder (which, of course, is a separate purchase). The quality is not as good as the original, no matter what, but unless there is a lot of motion, it is usually very difficult to see any differences. I don't think I've ever seen washing out of colors, unless the RGB 15-235 switch on the external encoder is set to the wrong state (no such switch on the encoder internal to Vegas).

sounds like a TV/cable problem to me. I've captured stuff from VHS, DVCPro, & DV (all analog & the DVC & DV firewire too) and haven't been able to tell the difference between the origional & the other when I view it on my "tv." On my old TV I was able to but when it died I recplace it with a ~29" NEC monitor and everything looks better. I also used custom made cables to connect it up. A bad/cheap cable can make the world of difference. I even use composite most of the time & it still looks great.

Can you extract a still from the DVD & compare it to the same still from the origional DV?

He's been asked a couple of times to submit his settings and he keeps dodging the question. I'll bet anything, he's using the regular default mpg2 setting which TOTALLY SUCKS. Use the next NTSC default settings, which have much higher settings. Or better yet, use the search function and read one of the million posts on custom mpg2 settings, even from the last few weeks. Listen to what John Meyer said above and give us/them the information we need to help you.

This is He. Didn't know I was dodging though I wasn't sitting at my machine. I always hesitate to consume someones time if there is lots of stuff on this. I didn't see it when I searched.

Lets just finish this.

yes, I usually use the default. If fact I think someone in this daisy chain recommended it. I have tried DVD NTSC...I don't see a difference. I tried variable bit rate > 6,000,000 bps. no difference. tried Best video rendering quality....hmmmmm.

Ah HA...I see something. a 31 instead of a 15. Well that's different isn't it. So will that make a difference i.e. DVD NTSC and the 31 setting? Just noticed maximum bps volunteers to be 8,000,000 bps. Is there anything else? What else am I not doing? That's what this posting was all about. Are we getting warmer?

Rick, I talk about all of this in Vol 1 #7 of my newsletters. The only real difference from then to today is that I now use 2-pass VBR. My best recommendation: DO NOT use the "Default" MPEG2 settings or you will be extremely disappointed.