Skywatcher wrote on 11/20/2004, 8:08 PM
Sup everybody.

I've searched the archives and read all the other threads on this topic, even John Meyer's very helpful threads. Still can't import a DVD (that I made DVD-R) into VV5. Tried to save it to my HD and import but only half of the Video comes over...the other have I am clueless as to where it went.

I even used DVD Decrypter and Demuxed back to mp2 and ac3. VV5's Main Concept does not recongnize the demuxed mp2 file. It wont open it.

I want to edit my DVD and re-burn back to DVD with no quality loss. How can I do this? What program can I use? Willing to spend $'s if I absolutely have to.

Thanks everyone,



Spot|DSE wrote on 11/20/2004, 8:33 PM
If you want to edit the DVD, you'll want to use a tool other than Vegas. Vegas will recompress it. Ulead Media Studio is one of the best at this, as even though it's a really weak editor, it will only recompress the edited portions where you've changed the contents of the frames.
Skywatcher wrote on 11/20/2004, 9:42 PM
I just wanted to turn it into a menu format for DVD. Its of our church services and I want to take the choir out and menu base everything. I wanted to add a few title blocks too.

VV5 should really work on accomendating us on this. I have read all the other threads and there is a BIG need for this ability to edit burned DVD's.

Thanks Spot,

farss wrote on 11/21/2004, 12:44 AM
Sounds like you don't actually need to edit the video. You can change the in/out points of a mpeg-2 clip in DVDA. You still end up with all the clip on the burnt DVD, so no space is saved however this does save you from re-encoding it.
I'd simply try getting the VOBs from the DVD back as mpeg-2 files and audio files that DVDA will accept and then you can re-author the DVD.
If you want to make any changed to any actual frame of video then you need to decode to AVI, edit in Vegas and the encode again.
Skywatcher wrote on 11/21/2004, 1:05 AM

Thats what I want to do. I will have to cut out some video. Whats the best program to convert the VOB's into AVI's? Or at least convert to mp2 that Main Concept can understand. And no quality loss.

I'll spend $'s if I must...

farss wrote on 11/21/2004, 4:11 AM
Must admit I'm not that familiar with the exact process, it's been a long time since I did it but I remember it was for much the same reason, I needed to add an additional video to a DVD I'd made but didn't want to capture the tapes again (very bad VHS that were falling apart).
You might do better looking at a site like DVDHelp, I'm certain what you need is out there somehere for free.
But if the original mpeg-2 files were under 1GB you may get away with just renaming them to .mpg and dropping them straight into DVDA.
EXCEPT, which version of DVDA was the DVD authored with?
Version 1 had a problem where the VOBs were the wrong size which meant most windows apps couldn't open the files properly IF the VOBs ran to 1 GB. Now I do recall there was a way arounf this problem, maybe have a look in the old DVDA posts.

ken c wrote on 11/21/2004, 8:20 AM
Someone here recommended a great free dumuxer for getting the audio off the vob files, http://www.ac3dec.com , it works well.

I'm also finding the http://www.womble.com mpeg video wizard a terrific tool, for many vob/mpg editing needs.

And for simple vob/mpg splits and joins, the www.boilsoft.com joiner/splitter utilities work great.

Now if Vegas 6 would INCLUDE some decent professional-grade vob/mpg editing funtionality (and a decent titler, like bluff titler type functions), that would be great, and not too much to ask for imho.

Skywatcher wrote on 11/21/2004, 8:21 AM
thx Bob.
Cheno wrote on 11/21/2004, 9:50 AM
depending on your needs for quality, even with a recompression, I've cut MPEG2 and re-authored for a couple of local businesses (their own material) and the outcome was not as bad as I'd been led to believe. I've also done DVD menus using repurposed MPEG2 files and have had success with that.

Again, all depends on your needs. Would I rebroadcast it? probably not.

Skywatcher wrote on 11/21/2004, 1:15 PM
For some reason, I cant get Vegas 5 to open Mpegs ripped from a dvd. If I try to drag and drop the VOB files only 50% of the video comes over.

Skywatcher wrote on 11/21/2004, 10:45 PM
Thanks John.

I've read all your post on the subject. You seem to be the authority when it comes to this...I hear your cry to Sony as well. You've been pushing for a solution to this for some time now...

wethree wrote on 11/22/2004, 9:29 AM
Hey guys,

Below my comments are excerpts from an article in this month's DV MAG, Nov2004. (full text can be read at www.dvlive.com, after registering)

After reading it, especially theh party aboutt +VR, -VR, OpenDVD, and Ulead, I bought a copy of Ulead's low-end Disc Creator/DVDMovieFactory 3 and have found that I can feed it DVD_Video segments from DVDs previously authored, and have it reauthor these onto a new disc recombined with new content. John Meyer, please check this out-- or at least get back to me and explain how this misses the boat.

My testing has only just begun, but I'd like to know how close Ulead's approach to offering (for now, a low end 'dvd reauthoring tool' -- and what future plans they migh have for implementing this into DVD Workshop 2+.

Spot have you heard anything about how DVD Workshop might pick up on this

ANYWAY here's the abridged article--hope this is cool by DV mag-- sorry if its not, but I couldn't think of a better way to paraphrase Doug than to let him speak for himself.

Douglas Dixon

Deconstructing DVDs: Re-Editing Your DVDs

The model for DVD authoring has been similar to that of movie making or music recording-a huge effort to produce one precious, immutable, master disc, which is replicated or duplicated as the final unchanging product.

But it doesn't have to be that way. Imagine re-creating the disc navigation of previously burned DVDs or including several editable versions of a cut for clients. The create-once model is breaking down into a new model in which a DVD is a repository of material that can be reused and even re-edited with new and updated material.

In a parallel development, formats that augment DVD video, such as Sonic's OpenDVD and the DVD VR (Video Recording) format, save additional project data on the disc to enable it to be re-edited. There are still plenty of limits; for example, you still can't reopen an arbitrary disc in an authoring tool and immediately edit a typo in a menu. But there are many steps you can take to deconstruct and reconstruct DVDs.


Reauthoring Recordable DVDs

Copying and extracting content from DVDs is only a partial solution for the more fundamental need to re-edit the contents of a DVD.

Why can't we just open up a DVD as a project in our authoring tool so we can edit the clips, menus, and navigation? This possibility seems so tantalizingly close with DVD copying tools because they can access much of the structure of a disc.

Sonic OpenDVD

Sonic Solutions has gone its own way to develop a format that enables DVD rerecording. Sonic describes the OpenDVD format as "a technology for creating DVD titles that include all of the necessary information that allows them to be re-edited, revised, and changed over time." OpenDVD adds additional data to a DVD-Video disc, stored in the DVD-ROM zone, that includes project and navigation information, plus additional elements, including menu graphics, backgrounds, and button art (see www.sonic.com/opendvd).

"This feature is critical for consumers," says Charles Wiltgen, MyDVD product manager at Sonic Solutions. "We've seen that OpenDVD removes the fear and anxiety that users would otherwise have if they couldn't edit or update their disc to fix things like typos, to add new episodes, etc."

Sonic has supported OpenDVD in MyDVD ($49 and up), and in the professional DVD Producer (starts at $1,999) application, but it is not yet supported in the new release of the midrange DVDit 5 ($299; see the review on page 50). "OpenDVD is an extremely important part of our prosumer and professional product line," says James Manning, DVD product marketing manager at Sonic. "DVDit will include OpenDVD in the next major revision."


Wiltgen continues, "For professionals, OpenDVD allows users to change DVD content without requiring reauthoring from scratch, making DVD an even more suitable medium for client approvals. Additionally, because all assets are stored on the DVD, ready for re-editing, the DVD itself can also serve as the project backup for exceptionally easy asset management."

Ulead DVD MovieFactory

Support for the VR formats in DVD authoring tools was originally driven by the drive manufacturers, who needed to bundle tools with their products that supported the associated VR format. Some authoring tools can import discs in one or both of the VR formats as a new project, or at least import assets from a recorded disc. Tools such as Nero Vision Express 2 can import or create DVDs in +VR format or record in real time to +VR, ready to play and edit further on a set-top recorder.

Ulead has provided extensive support for importing and exporting the VR formats in DVD MovieFactory 3 (www.ulead.com/dmf; $49). This tool goes beyond importing the contents of a disc (which requires copying all of those megabytes to hard disk), to actually re-editing a rewritable RW disc in place, without needing to cache large files through the hard disk.

As described by Travis White, product marketing manager of Ulead Systems, this can involve tricky management of the available free space on the disc: "One benefit -VR has is that it can have multiple playlists, so there can be various sequences of the same material being played. Also, if there is a blank space between data (such as if you delete a title), then -VR can use that space and combine it with other free space to accommodate a longer new video. The seamless play is achieved by a buffer in the player that is part of the -VR specification for players. Some -VR set-top players have the ability to sniff out a thumbnail from the different titles and display a thumbnail menu, but that is a function of the player, not the disc itself."

Ulead sees the flexibility of the +VR format as ideal for consumers who can author DVDs on rewritable media that are fully playable, and yet also can be easily updated in place to add new material. In this model, a DVD disc is no longer the final archive of a polished production, but instead is a dynamic, transitory view of a work-in-progress. Granted, this is a little dangerous because the final disc is also the editable project, so it might be a good idea to make backups before re-editing discs in place.

Says White: "If you have a -VR recorder, stick with that format. If you have a +VR recorder or no recorder at all, do the +VR format so you can experience the graphical menus just like DVD-Video."

DVD MovieFactory extends the +VR format by including its own project file on the disc to provide more detailed information and assets for the DVD menus and structure. It's interesting that the current version of Ulead's higher-end DVD Workshop application does not re-edit discs and does not write to the VR formats.

Douglas Dixon's latest book is Adobe Encore DVD: In The Studio (O'Reilly & Associates, 2004). For more on DVD authoring technology and tools, see his Manifest Technology site at www.manifest-tech.com.
johnmeyer wrote on 11/22/2004, 9:59 AM

I used MovieFactory 2, but never upgraded to MovieFactory 3. Perhaps I should.

What is so frustrating is that the need for re-authoring was obvious from the first day I started doing this, and I wrote many, many posts here in this forum, and also sent suggestions directly to the Sony suggestion box, long before Vegas 5 or DVDA 2.0 were completed. The responses back then, both from members of this forum as well as Sony, stated that such a capability was not needed because DVD was a delivery format and that once video was rendered into MPEG-2 it had lost quality and would never be as good as the original video. Also, MPEG-2 is not well-suited to video editing.

These of course are all correct, but they also completely miss the point, namely that every person who uses these products will some day be faced with the need to used content -- legally -- from a DVD where they will not have access to the original DV videotapes.

Since I posted my first pleas for these features, not a single week has gone by without someone requesting how they can use video and/or audio from an existing DVD. I can’t prove this, but I believe that it is the single most-requested feature on this forum (with all due respect to nested timelines, and an improved titler).

You have discovered that Ulead has added this feature, but they are not the only company. Adobe announced this ability last spring. Even if Sony doesn't understand the need or doesn't believe in the need for this capability, hopefully they will be forced into offering it because the competition DOES understand the need. We'll see ...
Spot|DSE wrote on 11/22/2004, 10:07 AM
Whilst I agree wholeheartedly, just to play devils advocate...what happens when Sony is sued for being part of the piracy solution?
I can entirely agree with people being able to access content from their own DVDs. But, I'm afraid that it won't end there. I know other NLE companies have been sued for encouraging piracy, even though they've won, it's still a huge nuisance. If Sony were sued for it, they'd probably set the standard because they're the only company that not only makes the pictures being pirated, but then they'd make the tools pirates were using to steal from Sony's films along with other studio's products, of course.

Wethree, I'm under NDA with Ulead, and can't comment on anything they have ongoing.

Skywatcher, I'd be careful about posting content from other forums. The Creative Cow loudly threatened lawsuits this past week against people doing just that from their sites, claiming they've won 3 lawsuits already. DV.com has a policy, as do most forums, against copy/pasting information from their forums to others. I can't imagine DVInfo.net or DV suing.... Just a head up, nothing else.
dondon wrote on 11/22/2004, 11:35 AM
Is there a way to force Vegas to perform a pulldown on a 24 fps MPEG? I have pulled a short clip from a VOB using an MPEG editor, but the resulting video and audio run at different rates. The MPEG clip is just the original MPEG track plus the LPCM audio. Both import properly into Vegas (version 4), but the video track ends up being 80% the length of the audio track.

I can get things to work out properly if I apply a velocity envelope at 80% to the video. Is this a reasonable workaround for the problem? Will I get better results if I can force VV to do a pulldown first, or will all this get lost in the rendering process anyway?
nickle wrote on 11/22/2004, 11:46 AM
Now I have to boycott Starbucks, 7/11, the state of California AND the Cow.
wethree wrote on 11/22/2004, 12:00 PM
thanks for the replies JM and Spot,

I see the need for DVD reauthoring tools as critically as JM, don't see the necessary connection to piracy solutions, REMIX, and don't mean for anyone to reveal anything their NDA doesn't permit,

HOWEVER, the DV article (which I excerpted, BTW not poor Skywatcher -sorry dude -guilt by juxtaposition?) concludes with an unanswered quesiton -- the odd decision Ulead (as well as Ahead, Sonic and others) to first release these features in their low-end products rather than in their higher end.

I do see a new model of DVD authoring on the horizon, one that replaces the movie model of production- do it once, do it perfect, cast it in stone -- with the McDonald's Model of Production -- "Have it Your Way... And How 'Bout Today?" I say let's take the author out of dvd reauthoring, hand the donkey-work of reauthoring miniscule changes in programming over to our clients (who don't see this as donkey work because they actually CARE that all that credit and agent info is correct, and get back to the more creative side of content creation-- coming up with something someone really needs.

And just to declare-- I'm in same camp as William Burroughs-- I think its all a REMIX. By the time I referenced the sources from all the ideas I just badly paraphrased, you'd realize nothing I said was new.... but you've never heard it quite like you just hear it eaither, have you-- that's the only spark of creativitly worth really protecting. And funny thing is-- it doesn't take all that much protecting.

Thanks JM, thanks Spot. Thanks Ulead, for DiscCreator and beyond.



Skywatcher wrote on 11/22/2004, 1:33 PM
No prob Wethree,

Whatever it takes to make our point and fulfill our need. Sony does monitor this forum and consider its users right?

Do they comment at all on our needs? John is right about this subject. It is definately in the top three in frequency. What is the best way to get Sony to listen to us??

Chienworks wrote on 11/22/2004, 1:36 PM
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