Well I'm not sure simply "passing through" DTS requires a license does it? I know it can be done with Encore and I'm not aware of any special license that Adobe has.

does encore allow you to make $$ of using the DTS encoder? Maybe they don't.

Encore (or PP for that matter) does not have a DTS encoder and furthermore I'm not asking to "encode". I already own a 3rd party (licensed) DTS encoder. What I need is to get it onto disk. Encore allows this by simply passing through the already-encoded DTS audio file. Encore can not play DTS nor can it display it. It does however RECOGNIZE dts as "compliant" and allows it to pass through without labeling it some form of illegal "uncompliant" file and therefore force a re-compress to something else.

What I'm simply asking is if there is some way to use DVDa in the same way. Is there a trick in the book that will allow me to get DVDa to recognize my dts audio file as "compliant"?

What I'm simply asking is if there is some way to use DVDa in the same way. Is there a trick in the book that will allow me to get DVDa to recognize my dts audio file as "compliant"?

Not that I am aware of. Although allowed, DTS was never mandated as part of the DVD spec, thus some players and surround amplifiers don't support it.

I don't know what percentage of consumer DVD players support DTS, but the Pioneer receiver I bought for $150 at Costco in 2005 decodes DTS, and so did the cheap Pioneer player I had previously.

--Ethan

"Not that I am aware of. Although allowed, DTS was never mandated as part of the DVD spec, thus some players and surround amplifiers don't support it."

DVDa supports Blu Ray which in turn supports DTS, and Blu Ray is what I'm interested in.

I have had no reason to involve myself in such things as DTS and uncompressed multi channel audio with DVD... but Blu Ray is a different ball game. These audio types ARE in the Blu Ray spec and the audio equipment associated with blu ray home theater systems is usually of a high enough caliber so that DTS is a gained venture as opposed to a lost one. It therefore stands to reason that DVDa should AT LEAST be able to pass it through.

Oh well.... maybe in the next version :(

ahhh... i thought you were talking about encoding. :)

No clue why DVDA doesn't support it. No clue why DVDA doesn't support non-100% compliant DVD's either. Some times I don't need one that works in every player, some times I need one that works for what I'm doing.

DTS audio sucks. It might be great in theory, but at least the way Hollywood uses it, it's terribly annoying. You start watching a movie and set the receiver volume to the normal dialog, and then when explosions and action scenes come, it's so loud that it seems your house it's going to break down. It's idiotic to release movies like that, and unfortunately it seems that every blu-ray movie now comes with DTS audio, and not less annoying, authored in BD-J. I'm not complaining because I have the secret to eternal life and I looooove to wait three minutes for a freaking movie to load.

I suspect the problem is that DVDA tries to be both an encoding and an authoring package. From my very brief brush with Encore it's strictly an authoring package, all the assets have to be prepared elsewhere.
Based on that I can see issues with the DVDA conceptual design and supporting DTS.

Bob.

@Sebaz

What you're speaking of has little to do with DTS technology and more to do with the way Hollywood mixes audio. In other words your "DTS sucks" statement is a tad off the mark.

For the record plain Dolby digital or even uncompressed multi channel could (and often is) mixed the same way. The difference of course is that DTS sounds a bit more 'fuller' then plain DD. But at any rate I suppose then that uncompressed multi channel and Dolby digital ... "sucks" too.... right ;)

Oh and BTW.... I like the way Hollywood rocks my coffee table at the drop of a bomb! If you don't then I would suggest you get a better home theater system because you CAN adjust for it.

"I suspect the problem is that DVDA tries to be both an encoding and an authoring package."

You're probably right but I don't see this as an issue (for me anyway). I simply don't believe they have gone into far enough detail as to what a "compliant" Blu Ray is. Otherwise we would be allowed to include DTS. I'm not sure this would be a complicated thing to do either.

I need to correct myself here (just to keep the thread accurate)....

While it is true that DVDa does not support DTS at all.... Adobe Encore is not that much further ahead.

It appears Encore only has support for DTS in the .CPT file format (which is acceptable for DVD but NOT blu ray). Encore can still not accept a true DTS-HD (master audio lossless) which is what I'm trying to do.

It appears the only thing that will support and work with DTS-HD is TSmuxer. But even with this, I can create a Blu Ray disk.... but it won't have menus.

I did put in a product suggestion for proper DTS support for Blu Ray on DVDa.... I hope they listen since Blu ray has much more capability than just plain Dolby Digital.

Rob, I'm curious about how you are using DTS. Could you discuss what you are authoring in DTS? What is the process one would use for DTS authoring?

Jerry

Not much different from Dolby Digital. In fact the dolby digital pro encoder in vegas probably gives you more options and flexibility. I have DTS Master Audio Suite and you simply enter your separate wav or aif files into the slots provided (up to 8 channels for 7.1 sound if you wish), choose the level of DTS encoding you want from straight dts up to DTS HD master, choose your sample rate... core bit rate and than away you go. The process is pretty easy. However there is no sense in upgrading say... dolby digital to DTS because you won't hear a difference. Your input files really should be of high quality otherwise the purpose of DTS is defeated. Right now I'm using rather high quality recorded files of Bach which really should be done in dts.

http://www.dts.com/Professionals/Pro-Audio_Software_Product_Family/DTS-HD_Master_Audio_Suite.aspx

sorry to burst your bubble people, but DD adn DTS are VASTLy different.

Without getting into an online argument, I'll say my piece.

DD and DTS use a different encoding scheme, thats the first issue.
They also use vastly different bitrate calculations. Typically DTS is twce the size of DD

DTS also uses a higher hz bandwidth where as DD is typically set to hit the usual 20khz range within the encode, which offers a full range ONLY at decreased gain levels.
DTS DOES offer a high dynamic range at the cost of clarity, whereas DD's dynamic range is controlled by normalised levels across the 6 channel stream

DTS is an ELECTIVE format wihtin DD and DTS whereas DD and PCM are MANDATORY. What this means is content providers MUST use eitehr PCM or DD on their product for it to meet the standard through the DVD consortium or through Sonys own BD licensing.
DTS and other formats such as MPG audio are elective (as mentioned) which means these formats can only be supplied WITH one of the mandatory formats.

So what does this mean to DVDA??
It means sony have elected to ONLY support the mandatory formats within their authoring tools.
Why?
Most likely cost and development R&D
How do we know this?
Because DVDA doesnt even support mpg WITH embedded audio. Even though it SHOULD be able to jsut burn that content straight to disc, it WILL NOT. Why? Becuase MPG is not a mandatory audio format. In turn, DVDA will reencode the mpg audio into a DD format.
Waste of time IMO especially when your simply transfering footage to DVD disc but ther u have it

"sorry to burst your bubble people, but DD adn DTS are VASTLy different. "
I think maybe you misunderstood. I wasn't stating that DD and DTS were similar... I was stating that the EASE of encoding and METHOD of encoding is similar to each other.



"DTS is an ELECTIVE format wihtin DD and DTS whereas DD and PCM are MANDATORY. What this means is content providers MUST use eitehr PCM or DD on their product for it to meet the standard through the DVD consortium or through Sonys own BD licensing."
DTS is not elective on BD. It is a MANDATORY part of the spec and all BD players are required to play it back. It is DTS+ and DTS-HD that are optional

As a mandatory part of the spec DVDa SHOULD be supporting it.... or AT LEAST allow an existing DTS encoded track to pass through. As it stands now, any and all DTS tracks are completely unrecognized.

From Wiki:
"Audio

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc

"sorry to burst your bubble people, but DD adn DTS are VASTLy different. "
I think maybe you misunderstood. I wasn't stating that DD and DTS were similar... I was stating that the EASE of encoding and METHOD of encoding is similar to each other.

((No, I didnt misunderstand. Encoding methods are SW choice based and there are quite afew different means to mix and encode a variety of different streams.
There are at least 3 different DTS encoders and 4 DD encoders which work VERY differently to each other. In the end, the results are the same, however the finsihed product (dts vs DD) IS vastly different)))



"DTS is an ELECTIVE format wihtin DD and DTS whereas DD and PCM are MANDATORY. What this means is content providers MUST use eitehr PCM or DD on their product for it to meet the standard through the DVD consortium or through Sonys own BD licensing."
DTS is not elective on BD. It is a MANDATORY part of the spec and all BD players are required to play it back. It is DTS+ and DTS-HD that are optional

As a mandatory part of the spec DVDa SHOULD be supporting it.... or AT LEAST allow an existing DTS encoded track to pass through. As it stands now, any and all DTS tracks are completely unrecognized.

((I am not disputing this, however this all goes back down to licensing. The cheapest DTS encoder (ie licensed content tool) is at least $2000 AUD... this might have come down in cost.
The cheapest DD encoding tool, is under $100.
Cost is a huge variable here, and I DO agree in regard to a DTS passthrough option.
This wont happen though.))

From Wiki:

((IM sorry, however wiki is wiki and doesnt give me the info i need.
If u want thorough information head to Dolby.com or dts.com

"Audio

For audio, BD-ROM players are required to support Dolby Digital (AC-3), DTS, and linear PCM.

((What they failed to mention is that its EITHER of these three within a BD NOT all three...
You wont find a a surround sound amp on the market which DOESNT support DD. Every single decoder handles DD, but many others do NOT support DTS.
content producers would be shootign themselves in the foot if tehy only offered a DTS track))

Players may optionally support Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD High Resolution Audio as well as lossless formats Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio.[62] BD-ROM titles must use one of the mandatory schemes for the primary soundtrack. A secondary audiotrack, if present, may use any of the mandatory or optional codecs."

((Thats pretty much what i wrote dude... the difference is the different formats BD can support bandwidth wise... ))

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc

No thanks. Like I said, wiki is wiki, but the source itself (codec/encoder developer) will have the actual info you need which will actually cover your ass. Wiki doesnt stand up in any contractual task Im afraid

"DTS is not elective on BD. It is a MANDATORY part of the spec and all BD players are required to play it back. It is DTS+ and DTS-HD that are optional"

to clarify... its ONE of the mandatory formats in BD, however even though PLAYERS must support it, decoding amplifiers do not. Many of the older surround sound systems do NOT support DTS.
If u EVER see a DTS encoded BD, you will most likely also find it accompanied by a PCM or DD track, despite the fact it CAN be thown on the disc on its own.

How exactly did decoding amps get worked into this?
All BD players are required to support DTS. This means they are ALREADY fully capable of decoding the DTS.

Now if you should choose the BITSTREAM option and send the raw non-decoded signal to an amp of your choosing... then you're on your own. But then that's not what we're speaking of here.

Bottom line... DTS is a mandatory part of the spec just like DD or pcm. It is not an option.

it came into the equation when not all decoders supported DTS... I believe it was also mentioned earler on in the thread...

Im not disputing that its ONE of 3 mandatory formats within BD, Im disputing how peoples perceptions of its use and capabilities, in addition to discussing its real world standing amongs the throng of new technology.

In a nutshell, if you ONLY use a DTS track, your screwed if your viewer doesnt know how to configure their BD player to decode and send as PCM (and most punters dont know how to configure this... trust me... )

In addition, 5 tracks of uncompressed audio from a BD player to a decoder CANNOT pass through an optical or digital connection.

It MUST go through HDMI as its the ONLY method in this day and age which has the bandwidth to handle 6 digital PCM Uncompressed audio streams.
SPDIF and Toslink just doesnt have thebandwidth to pull this off...

Hence why using the compression algorythms up to the point of the decoder (ie the surround sound amp) is more of a viable solution for cntent producers as not every amp has HDMI.

By doing it this way (ie the current most likely method for Mr Average Joe Blogs) ensures there is compatibility across the board without having to justify the use of any particular codec

Trust me, I deal with this rubbish every day, and the simpler the solution, the better everyone is. THere are ALOt of ignorant people out there with ALOT of money to spend. Content producers want the easiest way to get that cash off these ignorant people. Its the way of business...

There was no need to get defensive, Im just detailing the symantecs here
My next post is a post i drew up for a forum going so far back as 2006

OK, i wrote this for an article for a forum in 2006

Its a simple cut and past and hopefully it'll offer some insight.
-------


The problem is, the PS3 and BD in general doesn't support 7.1 output through the digital out port, only through the HDMI port

Optical output doesn't support 7.1 output. That is a HDMI-only feature. This isn't a limitation of the PS3 or BD, it's a limitation of the optical connection, as designed and implemented in all consumer devices.

The same goes for 5.1 LPCM. Optical simply doesn't support multichannel uncompressed LPCM output, which is the format some games apparently use. Again, this is a limitation of the optical connection, as designed and implemented in all consumer devices. It is not a limitation that is specific to the PS3.

If you have optical, you need to set the PS3 to output bitstream / Dolby Digital. If you set your PS3 to LPCM, the best you can get is stereo, because that is all optical can support. As implemented in consumer devices, the optical connection supports a maximum codec transport of 1.5 Mbps.

Bitstream
5.1 Dolby Digital (DVD ) = 0.448 Mbps
5.1 Dolby Digital (Bluray) = 0.640 Mbps
5.1 DTS = 0.768 Mbps
6.1 DTS-ES = 1.5 Mbps

LPCM
2.0 16/48 LPCM = 1.5 Mbps (supported by optical)
5.1 16/48 LPCM = 4.6 Mbps (HDMI only)
5.1 24/48 LPCM = 6.9 Mbps (HDMI only)
7.1 24/48 LPCM = 9.2 Mbps (HDMI only)
7.1 24/96 LPCM = 18.4 Mbps (HDMI only)

When A/V receivers without HDMI say they support 7.1, in most cases, all that means is they will apply 7.1 Dolby Prologic IIx processing to a 5.1 signal. It does not mean they accept 7.1 signal. If a receiver doesn't have HDMI, then it doesn't support a 7.1 LPCM input from the PS3 or any other device, and nothing can be done to change that.

Some receivers without HDMI have 7.1 analog input jacks, but most BD manufacturers didn't include the DACs necessary to make 7.1 analog output possible -- this was done to keep costs down.

Truth is, AC3 won the game a long time ago, mandated or not.