Editing music.

farss wrote on 8/3/2007, 5:42 AM
I think I'm way out of my depth on this one, assuming there is even a way this can be done. Here's the challenge.
Music is brass and pipe organ. Group plays the music until they fluff it or just need to turn the page, whatever. Problem is, more often than not something intrudes before the note has decayed or I'll need to cut in between notes. Now to state the obvious the decay time of a pipe organ is huge, the reverb time of the venue ( a cathederal) is very long too. I can sort of understand the mechanics of extending the decay time of a single note however this is going to involve lots of frequencies and harmonics.
Someone else shot this, started to edit it and then found a reason to abandon it, the more I think about it the more I'm inclined to do the same. Except the client is a pretty decent bloke, it wasn't his fault this project might have been doomed from the start and it's his composition being played.
I appreciate this is a pretty tricky question and I certainly expect to do a lot of learning if it can be done but where to start, if it's even worth starting.

Bob.

Comments

Steven Myers wrote on 8/3/2007, 7:01 AM
Anything you do is going to have artifacts.
That said, you could try stretching the note that's been cut off. The longer you make it, the greater the artifacts.
Try it, but you might not like it.

If the music stretches okay, then you might find an impulse response/convolution reverb that sounds similar to the room in which the music recorded. Try applying that.
riredale wrote on 8/3/2007, 8:01 AM
If you can't find the same note with a clean tail elsewhere in the composition, then all I can think of is to copy the note to a new track and apply a similar-sounding reverb to it, then copy it back to the original piece.

The choir director I work with a lot is often amazed at how much better I can make the choir sound with a liberal application of cut n' paste and pitch adjustment, but there are limits. Still, maybe you could do a very short clip and see if the client likes it better than the original.
UKAndrewC wrote on 8/3/2007, 11:35 AM
You may find it easier to do this in Audacity. You can repeat the part that you do have, as long as you like and play with the sound as it decays.

Andrew
TGS wrote on 8/3/2007, 12:22 PM
I haven't experimented with this enough to be 100% sure, but when stretching notes, DO NOT preserve pitch. Preserving Pitch created the most artifacts. Just change the pitch by the slightest number and it works much better. I've had good luck speeding up the tempo of a recording while lowering the pitch with hardly an artifact. Something about preserving the pitch that makes it a lot worse. But it's not like I do this everyday. The slightest change in pitch will be almost impossible to detect.
Bill Ravens wrote on 8/3/2007, 12:39 PM
Bob...

The solution to your problem may very well lie in looking at the timeline EQ curve. I know this may sound trite, but, try it. You can download an EQ analyzer and carver at www.har-bal.com. This is the best tool I've found. Many times, the intrusive sound happens at a very distinct frequency. By putting a notch filter right at those frequencies, you can do a pretty decent job of muffling it without hurting the rest of the music, especially if the intrusive sound is below 100 Hz or above 10000 Hz. HarBal will let you "carve" the EQ curve at whatever frequency you chose, taking the peaks out or actually putting a zero gain notch filter in the soundtrack.

Hope this helps you some.
farss wrote on 8/3/2007, 2:14 PM
I've got Sound Forge and used notch filters and NR2 in the past to carve out bits of the spectrum, for things like getting rid of the tail of a note under the first word of narration.
The reverb of the venue shouldn't be too much of an issue, the building is within driving distance and I think the client is on good terms with the clergy so recording some impulses for Acoustic Mirror isn't out of the question. That'd be last resort approach, I've got the full download of over 1,000 samples from various venues around the planet plus in this recording there's the odd baton tap that might serve the purpose.

Where I'm stuck is this extending the note thing. I've tried simple reverb before and it's not the same as making a note longer. Probably what I need to delve deeper into is Sound Forge, there's some tools in there that I've never explored. What I'm thinking is there might be a way to slice a sample by finding where the sequence repeats. Then by duplicating that sequence I can extend the note, that is the sustain section, to rebuild the decay.

Bob.
baysidebas wrote on 8/3/2007, 2:17 PM
Adobe CS3 http://www.adobe.com/products/soundbooth/features/Soundbooth[/link] has a graphical healing tool that is just what you're looking for. You can download a free trial.
farss wrote on 8/3/2007, 4:55 PM
I've actually got CS3, once i get it installed I'll see if it does anything that SF can't.
Bill Ravens wrote on 8/4/2007, 5:30 AM
Nether the EQ tool in Vegas nor the EQ tool in SF will be able to do this. Harbal is the only EQ carver I know of on the market that will work with 1/12th octaves. If your EQ tool only works on 1/8 octaves or less, it won't work.. But, do as you wish. After all you do know what's best. Harbal takes some experienced audio ears to be able to use it effectively.
TorS wrote on 8/4/2007, 7:04 AM
Depending on the kind of music they play, how often they repeat themselves (as in verses etc) you might be able to find good endings to overlap with bad ones. I've done this on a recording of a singer with organ in a medieval cathedral.
Also, the sound you want to extend does not have to come from the same ending where you want it to end up.
Then, since the cathedral is accessable, could you get someone to play a useable chord on the organ and overlap it with the recording?
Tor
OdieInAz wrote on 8/4/2007, 12:35 PM
Sorry, didn't read the problem close enought.
newhope wrote on 8/7/2007, 7:00 AM
Bob
Do you mean to say that they didn't start playing earlier than the 'fluff' when they commenced playing again? Just started dry from the point they stopped?

I used to edit the Operas and Ballet from SOH for Aunty. My rule of thumb would be to find the attack on a clean note prior to the fluff, or edit in the case of a vision or take change, and the matching clean attack of the same note in the incoming new section, it's SOP for music editing.

Occasionally the application of some reverb was necessary but I've cut and replaced dud notes with good notes from other performances out of a stereo mix of full orchestra, vocal backing and soprano where they thought they'd have to get the artist to rerecord her vocals and remix the multitrack. By the way I did this on an Audiofile back in 1994 and DAWS have progressed a little since then.

But if they didn't think to back track during recording I wish you luck.

Steve
farss wrote on 8/21/2007, 7:32 PM
Realise it's been a while but thought I'd let everyone know how this went in the end:

Wasn't as bad as I thought it was, wouldn't have freaked so much if I could read music and also realised that actually in one part I could but the organist couldn't, she skipped a rest!

Only had to edit 4 sections together and it came out well all things considered. Two message from the client / composer:

1) Just wanted to thank you, that was the most pleasant edit session I've ever had.

2) Organist says: "How the heck did you edit all that together?", even she couldn't pick the edits in the music.

The trick I used was to cut the vision one beat before the cut in the music. I matched the level of the notes but if you listen carefully you can hear the slight change in the sound of the brass, (they were blowing a little harder in one take). If you watch as well as listen the brain gets distracted.

I hope I get to shoot / record some material for this guy, I've been a big fan of pipe organs since I was a kid. Might need to save the pennies for some serious mics.

Bob.
TorS wrote on 8/22/2007, 6:21 AM
Glad to hear you came through.

Might need to save the pennies for some serious mics.

Some serious stands to, I'd imagine.
Tor
farss wrote on 8/22/2007, 7:13 AM
Some serious stands to, I'd imagine.

Ah, yeah!
I think it's Atlas who make suitable mic stands, at $450 a piece! I did find a local agent for some Italian ones that are on special for $199.

Bob.