Event Pan/Crop vs. Crop vs. PiP

AVsupport wrote on 3/2/2020, 1:01 AM

I still find it tedious when editing a 16:9 version that I also want a final Square version for insta, this is not straight forward.

Ideally I just change the project settings to square, and whack a Resizer in the Video Output FX to fill the frame. Using 'Event Pan/Crop' is a time waster, and can lead to many keyframe errors. 'Crop' doesn't work because it won't fill the frame. PiP is lovely and easy to use, but I fear once you magnify (x2.7scale you need if you start with a 1920x1080) to fill the frame as intended everything goes SOFT.

If you want it or not, Insta square and vertical formats unfortunately have the 20Bn$$$ behind it, as it's overtaken facebook advertising in advertising total value. Sure there's a demand for this, I can't be the only one?

..Not to mention the missing upload feature..

 

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

Comments

EricLNZ wrote on 3/2/2020, 1:11 AM

If you're magnifying 2.7X what is your output resolution?

AVsupport wrote on 3/2/2020, 1:27 AM

my source material is 1920x1080, project is 1080x1080. So in theory I shouldn't loose a pixel..

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

Vegas_Sebastian wrote on 3/3/2020, 2:04 AM

Use Pan/Crop or put your magnifying FX before Pan/Crop in your effect chain

AVsupport wrote on 3/3/2020, 4:08 PM

As I said @Vegas_Sebastian there's no Pan/Crop on the track level or Output FX level that I can engage as a global parameter. I also find the forced keyframing leading to operator errors or too many steps to go through. Maybe it's just me being not as savvy as I should be, but it's not the most intuitive tool to use.

Would be better to have a 'Pan/Crop' video FX usable as plugin, or an 'Aspect Ratio Correction' tool with a click box 'letterbox', 'pillar box' and 'fit to fill'. Simple, nice and easy, with some presets to fix the most common conversions.

And why do I end up not being able to use PiP to do this without being soft?

Last changed by AVsupport on 3/3/2020, 10:59 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

Former user wrote on 3/3/2020, 5:54 PM

Pan/Crop and Track Motion (which I believe is now PiP) work differently. Pan/crop works at the original source resolution, which is why it is good for doing zooms and pans on stills. Track motion works at project resolution so if you zoom using that, regardless of the original source resolution, it treats it as the current project resolution, so it "blows" it up.

Dimitrios wrote on 3/3/2020, 7:24 PM

When I am making one video into several different dimensions. I make the largest one first. Then I change the project settings and use track motion on the video tracks to make it fit the way I way. Other events I tend to adjust manually one by one. When it comes to size and position adjustment in general I typically go for pan crop, but sometimes it has limitations like how small you can make it sometimes, in cases like the PIP effect can be better or used on top of it. I usually don't use track motion unless I want several tracks to move together. I prefer the preciseness of pan crop over PIP.

Vegas_Sebastian wrote on 3/4/2020, 9:27 AM

As I said @Vegas_Sebastian there's no Pan/Crop on the track level or Output FX level that I can engage as a global parameter. I also find the forced keyframing leading to operator errors or too many steps to go through. Maybe it's just me being not as savvy as I should be, but it's not the most intuitive tool to use.

Would be better to have a 'Pan/Crop' video FX usable as plugin, or an 'Aspect Ratio Correction' tool with a click box 'letterbox', 'pillar box' and 'fit to fill'. Simple, nice and easy, with some presets to fix the most common conversions.

And why do I end up not being able to use PiP to do this without being soft?

Have you tried to use your project file as nested object? Then, you can put your magnifying FX before Pan/Crop as Event-FX for that nested object.

AVsupport wrote on 3/4/2020, 3:13 PM

@Vegas_Sebastian if the magnifying FX work at project resolution then I suspect enlargement to fill the frame will again lead to softness. Also, this seems more convoluted and not straight forward as I think it should be, really, especially when you're going through the edit process

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

EricLNZ wrote on 3/4/2020, 4:20 PM

@AVsupport I'm a VMS user so I may be missing something you have in Pro. The only way I can achieve what you want is using Event Pan/Crop and right clicking on the box to select "Match Output Aspect".

But with still images, Preferences/Editing provides for "Automatically crop still images added to timeline". Something similar for video images would solve your problem so that videos added to your square image project are cropped to shape instead of being fitted into the square with black letterboxing. This is effectively what you are asking in your post a few back. I'm surprised Vegas Pro doesn't have it. Consumer editors that I've used usually have the option.

AVsupport wrote on 3/4/2020, 6:26 PM

@EricLNZ Unfortunately, here's no such thing as 'Match Output Aspect' in Event Pan/Crop in VP17. You can make yourself a preset for 1:1 square, but this will be applied with a keyframe at the cursor position, and not globally.

If you go 'the other way' and use Track Motion and blow the clips up to cover the whole 1080x1080 square by using 1920x1920, you enlarge again and image gets soft, because this also seemingly works on project resolution, not an option.

With over 20$ bn annually, Instagram has overtaken Facebook as the biggest advertising revenue machine, and like it or not, the square format and vertical stories and IGTV will be here for a while, there is an actual demand for this. VP developers would be clever to take note and cater for this opportunity if they want to keep and or increase their customer base.

 

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

EricLNZ wrote on 3/4/2020, 8:03 PM

@EricLNZ Unfortunately, here's no such thing as 'Match Output Aspect' in Event Pan/Crop in VP17.

@AVsupport Are you sure? I cannot believe it's not in Pro and I'm sure I've seen it mentioned in Pro threads. You Right click on the crop box and this is what I get:

AVsupport wrote on 3/4/2020, 8:39 PM

Thanks @EricLNZ I didn't know this existed! Also tested this with TrackMotion, and whilst the contents of the right-click context window are slightly different, it also has square aspect in there! Fabulous ;-)

Thanks for the tip

Now to investigate vertical 'insta stories' 9:16 formats whilst coming to terms with the keyframes...

Last changed by AVsupport on 3/4/2020, 8:51 PM, changed a total of 2 times.

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.