It is an optical impossibility for the DOF to be different.

DOF is determined by the focal length of the lens, the distance to the subject, and the aperture. There's nothing the camera can do to modify that. ANY 1/3" camera, operating at the same focal length and the same aperture, will exhibit identical depth of field.

Those 1/3rd" chips are definitely a part of the equation. All other things being equal, the camera with the 1/3" chips should have less dof than a cam with 1/6th" chips.

If you want dof comparable to 35mm film then you'll need similar geometries.

Rob Mack

"This is from Charlie White, who is known for sometimes fairly acerbic and challenging reviews. Charlie is no easy guy to please, and he liked the camera immensely."

Another Sony "suit" gave a very interesting and detailed presentation at the most recent SCVUG meeting in Los Angeles. At least 10x more detail than Charlie White's "First Impression" article!

I have to say that I was more impressed with this camera than I have been by any other model in many many years. A lot of things that they could have screwed up, well they didn't.

It seems they must have listened to real users to see what they really need, because it was all there.

I think this product will be a worldwide monster hit, and those who don't pre-order will have to wait a long time for theirs.

I also think Spot is right, this will pre-empt DV big time for those who are more serious about their work. The creative flexibility of this camera is excellent. Great rack focus, great high resolution viewfinder that can zoom in to get really clear for critical focusing, native 16:9, zoom ring that doesn't rotate infinitely, etc. etc. Lots of great details that show they really did their homework.

Even if you just downconvert to standard definition in Vegas you will get better results than with any of the existing cameras in this class (unless you have to have interchangeable lenses).

I suspect the 4:2:0 sampling will also make DVDs look better as there should be no further color loss. Regular NTSC DV is sampled at 4:1:1 which gets cut to 4:1:0 in the conversion to 4:2:0 for DVD, leaving only 12.5% of the color information...

OK Thanks Guys I think that clears that up then the dof is the same on this as any other camera with 1/3 Chips so it would seem ! But you still can output high picture quality to a higher format.. Also you have things like skin detail also a follow focus memory where you can preprogram it to go to a specific focus at the touch of a button ? also a greater latitude when working with light ? These are some of the Improvements that for the Consumer market are surely Groundbreaking.... The next step up I would imagine is something like the sony 570 a much higher price leap.. But this only gives you more ability to be creative certainly cant beat the Picture quality ?

IMO Only

This Camera is without doubt surely the start of a Consumer revolution.. Once professional DV models start getting The same stuff with Bigger Chips wide lens ect... This I think will replace Pro DV Cameras ...Then the Future will be as IT HAS BEEN But with higher Picture quality... I dont really understand what canon has done here because they would have been very aware of all this.. I really would not be surprised to see an upgrade in the pipeline to HDV

Yes Mark, " . . I dont really understand what canon has done here . . " it's what they haven't done that is intriguing me . . Didn't they know about the FX and the Z1 prior to the XL2? Of course they didn't . . . Yeah right! . . .

Canon "appear" to have dropped the ball OR have agreed to do so .. the next 1 or 2 years ARE going to be quite interesting down this "my-end" of the market . .

Grazie

Don't you think Canon, being part of the HDV format designers, has an HD version of the XL2 up their sleve? They must have considered that if the market accepts the Sony HD cams as the way to go the XL2 is an expensive dodo at birth. Shurly thay are set up to make a quick switch to an HD version of the XL2 - if not I think they screwed up big time. Same goes for Panasonic.

Mike S

. .and the clock is clicking .. .

Real world comments from camerapersons. OK, both only using it to shoot 16:9 SD. Generally favourable but a different camera to the 150/170, comment from both was "it's slower", things like WB take the camera longer. Both were impressed with the much higher level of control the camera gives you considering the cost of the camera.
Now from what I know of these two users they're both full time cameramen, very different to most of us here I suspect but the opinions of anyone who spends most of their day peering down a viewfinder are pretty valid.

Now I think this only backs up the more intelligent comments about the camera, so far no one who can be taken seriously can find anything wrong with it, perhaps there is some valid complaint about the HDV format in general but that's another story. Yes I think it's going to be the start of a big shift in our end of the industry.
But I very much doubt it spells the end of cameras like the 570 or Sonys XDCAM. These are serious kit, a lens for one of these costs more than a Z1 will, does that tell you something? And another thing, as good as the build quality is on the HDV cameras I doubt it'll take the sort of abuse that cameras get in ENG etc.
After another play around with the camera myself, I love it, even for just plain DV25 it's great, controls are in the right place, even the 'consummer' audio is better than the 2100, at least you get manual level control and a little cover so you won't bump the dial by mistake and the external 'mic' input will accept line level too, well done Sony!
What I don't like, its front heavy and put the Sony WA adaptor on the front it gets worse. Would that stop me buying one, nope. But again if all I did was shoot video day in, day out I think I'd find that a pretty big issue. I'm a bit uncertain about the use of a shutter to replace the traditional lens cap to, good thing is it doesn't get lost but it does feel a bit frail.
Bob.

great comments Bob... Just to clarify my Post....I didnt mean to imply the Z1 Could replace the 570... Just that the 570 may be upgraded at some point to HDV..

Fair enough!
Yes I'm pretty certain that we'll see some more cameras from Sony and others using HDV. Somehow though I have a feeling we may see other recording formats, perhaps at a higher bitrate using a different tape format. I certainly hope so. I'm no fan of those twitchy MiniDV tapes. Hm, HDW (or X,Y,z) using D8 tape, now that I'd buy.
You know what, I've had SO much trouble with MiniDV tapes and dropouts it drives me nuts, yet despite my best efforts I've not had one single glitch in anything I've recorded on my factory second D8 camera. That includes using 10 year old Hi8 tapes that must have been played 1000 times (I got them ex inflight movie player service). On top of that the camera was filled with sand in a sandstorm in central China and then covered in mud shooting a car rally and still the damn thing will not even hiccup.
OK, the picture quality is nothing like that from a PD150 but at least I can use every single frame and every single sample of audio from the damn thing.

Bob.

Mark the resolution of the camera will not allow you to make a commerical film. You could make a commercially available movie now if you want to on SD cameras and have it distributed on DVD. I've just sold a feature length DV production I made to a US dsitributor.

If you can't get your productions sold to the lower end of the scale such as a VHS release or a DVD release with SD, what makes you think you can make a movie that people will want to show in the cinemas?

Forget the resolution. To make a decent saleable movie you have to be able to deal with everything from lighting, composition, editing, the whole deal. If you are doing this the indie way.

A bad shot in SD will be a bad shot in HD. This idea that somehow having a HDV camera will suddenly enable any Joe Nobody from the street to make a cinema worthy film release is exactly the kind of thing I hold against the attitudes the new Sony camera is creating.

People. If you are rubbish at SD, you will be rubbish at HD. The only difference being that in HD your mistakes will be even more noticeable!

The Sony CCD has more pixels closer together than an SD CCD of the same size. The DOF of the new Sony is less than an SD camera of the same chip size.
http://b-roll.net/ubb/ultimatebb.ph...ic;f=1;t=007198 is one explanation. This was also explained to me seperately by a BBC engineer who specialise in the technicalities of HD production and the internal workings of the cameras.

Yes, dropouts from MiniDV are the bane of my life!

The 570 is being discontinued apparently with the PDW510 taking it's place. So I would assume any replacement would be based on that system. Now the question is, when Sony do succeed the XDCAM series, will we still get a two tiered XDCAM system? Such as a high end HDV version like the 510, and a much higher bitrate HD version of the 530? Time will tell.

You guys are sounding pretty narrow minded. OK, excuse me, I don't mean to insult anyone, but, you're ignoring the major editting and distributing problems with even HDV. Have you even looked at XL2 footage? The images are incredible, even blown up on my sony 23" widscreen LCD. I'd be glad to put up my XL2 against and FX1. The test would be starting with a tape, capturing, editting, including heavy transitions, PTT, and re-distriute. I'd bet you I'd be the first to market and that my images would be barely distinguishable from yours.

I think Canon knows very well what they're doing. Sony is taking a BIG chance, but, knows there are people willing to buy their sales pitch and who don't care about distribution. In time, HDV will win out, of that I'm sure. But, they're guilding their lilly, right now.

Perhaps I should extend a big thank you very much to all of you who are donating to Sony's profit margin. Because of your exemplary efforts, Sony will make a real prosumer HD camera I can buy with confidence some day in the future.

I'll have to come down somewhere between you guys and Bill on this thread. Saying Canon has made a mistake when the Z1 isn't even shipping is sorta jumping the gun, isn't it?
Canon has never been an early adopter of anything. Look how long it took them to get the XL1 out after the VX 1000....
Canon knows what they're doing, and Sony has almost always been a leader in this sort of thing.
On the other hand Bill, you wouldn't have any trouble at all distinguishing between the XL2 and the HVR Z1 footage. Even when downsampled from HDV to DV. Now, if you shot the Z1 vs the XL2 with both being DV, and both shooting 16:9, the only real difference you'd notice would be the DOF, but if you put the Broadcast lens on the XL2, you'd have that, too.

.. smashing thread . . great stuff. . .

Bill I have seen images from the XL2 And the Sony Consumer Model and IT Blows the XL2 OUTA THE Water.. Completely... There is no comparison whatsoever... OF Course when its downsampled to DV THEN you lose the Picture quality but Im sure the same thing would happen with any pro footage downsampled to DV ?...

BUT

George Lucas Filmed Star Wars in HD This Camera takes the Picture Quality and Doubles the Defianation of DV Getting us all nearer that Pro Ability I for one want to be a part of that I applaude Sony for this !

Of course there are two Markets out there and Im sure the Canon is the Best Camera at the Moment for event Videographers and the General Public at least in the UK For now...But this Is the Future and I cant wait... GO Sony

Simon you said


>Mark the resolution of the camera will not allow you to make a commerical film.

I would be willing to bet you will be able to have this telecined to 35mm Probably easier and cheaper than 16mm... OK HDV defination is only EquIvilent to 8mm BUT Magic Bullet has Successfully Upgraded DV To 35mm with its Deinterlacing.. As well as other Filmakers... So how likely is it that this would Successfully be blown up to 35mm Much better than Ordinary DV..

Simon I agree WITH you....You have to have all the Skills in place to make a Film and this Camera is only A tool to do this,,, BUT Im sure I would be right in thinking when Im setting up my Light Kit and Looking at the Monitor I will be getting a darn sight more Film Atmosphere (Lighting ect) than I would with DV... AND I reckon this extra Latitude WILL Translate Down to MY DVD When its done.. AND THATS only for now... In the Future I will have done stuff today that will still be usable tommorrow..

I tell you what... If we ever end up at a film Festival On a 40 foot Screen and your DV Film gets shown alongside my HDV Film Know what I would rather have

For Wanna be Film makers this is the way to go...



Im also equally sure if I was an event VIDEOGRAPHER I would purchase the Canon Because the Public in general will not have the TVs in large enough Numbers to watch the Footage...

If anyone is Interested my Latest Film is up on Chienworks NOW..

http://vegasusers.com/vidshare/textdisp?mark2929-alien_wars_part_2_

That was great. Music was really suspenseful.

How long until the next episode?

You should start a new thread though. This one may not get much attention. I just stumbled on it.

Thanks Nickle very Appreciated ;) Not sure How long ! Im thinking of doing the next one in either 16mm or 8mm All new exciting areas for me I really do enjoy this..

Mark, a very wide lattitude is available in cameras such as the XDCAM. Contrast lattitude is not a restriction of the tape format, it's a restriction of the camera head. Pro cameras are obviously a lot better than consumer ones in this regard.

As for being easier to telecine to 35mm, I'm afraid not. With the new Sony you still need to go through a deinterlacing process, and in actual fact companies such as Swiss Effects, a highly regarded video to film transfer house, are charging MORE to put HD onto film than SD!

As for lighting and atmosphere, HD will not do anything to add to this. Good lighting and composition is good lighting and composition whether it is on SD or HD. Do films shown in the cinema have less atmosphere and film like feel once they are transferred to DVD?

The Sony is NOT a magic bullet. It's a tool that in the right hands could do great stuff. It is NOT however going to enable any ordinary person get a 35mm transfer.