Export to miniDV: RsDvCap fails w/ rendered AVI; more problems

karlophone wrote on 12/29/2001, 1:57 AM
Hello! i have VV2, and have been creating and rendering video clips for some time. However, my capture program, (for a bunch of reasons now irrelevant) is RATROC's "RsDvCap". via firwire i capture clips from my miniDV Sony handycam (DCR-TRV900), and ive never had a problem.

till now ive been rendering them as 320x240 multimedia AVIs, and then later using an mpeg encoder on the avi if i want to put an mpeg on the web. ive never had a need to put an edited version of anything back out on tape. Now i need to export a finished 3 minute music video back to miniDV so a digiBeta master can be made from it, and so on.

RsDvCap has no problem exporting a small clip back onto the tape via firewire, such as a clip i originally imported in the first place. But all attempts to export a rendered file have been failing.

I originally intended to go for max quality (720x480 ntsc), which for a 3 min video clip would be about 8GB. (however it always has an error when it got to halfway, about 3.99GB) Now, the "half clip" could still be played- but when i realized my laptop (dell latitude, 1GB Pentium3, 512 RAM, 48GB HD) wouldnt play the thing back without chopping up, (that is a codec issue right?) ...anyway, i went back and rendered at the usual 320x240, though i set the video quality setting to high). the rendered 320x240 clip's size went from 800MB to 1.5 GB, which told me that i had indeed made a sharper product, and it still played fine.

but these clips will not export. RsDvCap is a bit shoddy in its tech support (lots of semi-english in the help menus), but i cant see it being the problem, as it would in fact export the smaller "raw" clips sucessfully.

to test this , i rendered smaller and smaller sections of the video, right down to a 5 second fragment, and none of them will export. So i conclude that its not a size or quality of avi issue: it just wont export a rendered avi- it will only export "raw" footage clips that imported in the first place. Thus, its something to do with the rendered clips...

so i basically am asking:

1. should i get vegas video capture for starters? note that from some other threads ive read, it looks like people are having similar problems with that program in some cases.

2. assuming i do get video capture, what tips could save me from having this happen again?

3. ought i look into upgrading to VV3? is this problem still an issue in 3?

4. what is it that either RsDvCap or my camera "doesnt like" about these avis ?

5. ive heard tales that in Adobe Premeire, one can just play the project file, and hit record on the DV cam, and as long as the firewire was plugged in and the camera turned on before premeire was booted up, it would capture the thing, right from the non rendered project. is this out of the question in VV? (and if so, why??)

any insights would be very helpful! i am basically stuck and am overdue to hand this project in, and i never thought id be stymied by this apparently simple step!

thank you!
-karl

Comments

rstein wrote on 12/29/2001, 2:56 AM
I'm just a newbie at this, but recall there are some constraints on the image size and frame rate to render "legal" DV that you're bumping into.

Another problem you might be having is the 4GB limit to individual file size if you are using Win9x/WinME, or aren't using an NTFS partition with the NT-derived OSs (NT/2000/XP).

One of the experts chime in, please! :-)

Bob.
Caruso wrote on 12/29/2001, 4:10 AM
Karl:
(Like your handle, BTW) - - I’m no expert, but your post raises one question in my mind. I’m curious what may be different about your “max quality” NTSC renders. Three minutes of video should not require 8 GB. I’m using VV3 (and have used VV2 as well as Pinnacle products) and 8GB would yield about 36 minutes of rendered video. Since I’m not at all familiar with your capture/print to tape program, I won’t even try to troubleshoot the problem you’re experiencing that might be specific to that software.

However, in answer the other questions you raise:

1) If you have a need to perform the sort of task you describe on any regular basis at all, I would advise you to invest in VV30 (which includes VVCapture30 – well enhanced over previous versions of the SF capture/print to tape utility).
2) Get the entire VV30 package (not sure you can get the capture utility stand alone, anyhow). You’ll capture, edit, print back out to DV all from the same application, and, for the most part, use pre-set VV30 templates . . . very little is necessary in the way of custom settings to get good results . . . I usually select Best rather than Good quality rendering, and keep the box checked that tells the software to resample all clips (I’ve been advised and have confirmed that this results in smoother renderings of FX like slow motion, etc). I do agree with the previous poster that your problem experienced at around 4GB file size seems to point to the known Windows FAT32 limitation on file size. The good news is that VV30 can handle this for you as well. During capture or render, it will automatically start a new file when the limit is reached, so that you get [capture_file.avi] up to 3.99GB, then [capture_file_01.avi] for the next 3.99GB section, and [capture_file_02.avi] for the next, and so on. Render works the same way. Place these files in order back to back on the timeline, and you can play through, from one to the next to the next, and you will not be able to detect where the files break. I have a project that is 1:17:00 long, and, if I render to a FAT 32 partition on my system, I get three of these files. This project involves classical music, some file splits coming during the holding of a sustained note from the singer, and, I can tell you, the break is simply undetectable.
3) See my response to question 2).
4) Won’t venture to guess the answer to this question.
5) I am not familiar with Premiere, but, VV30 allows you to preview the timeline display to an external monitor, which sends that signal out through the firewire to your DV cam. If you have that hooked to your TV or VCR via S-Video or Composite cable, the preview also shows up on those components, and, of course, you could make a VHS recording of that signal if you desired.

A better solution provided by VV30 is to print to tape (I do this from the timeline), disabling auto transport control of the DV cam. VV30 will perform any pre-rendering of your material as required and prompt you with a countdown screen to manually start your DV cam in record mode. If you prefer to record directly to a VHS machine, simply leave the DV cam in stop and pass the signal from the firewire through the DV cam on to your VHS machine via the aforementioned S-video or Composite cables.

If, as I am, you are limited in your video efforts by the inability to acquire the latest, greatest, most powerful computer (mine is 900 mhz/128 megs RAM . . . no wimp, but losing ground to newer, ever more powerful machines daily), the second method will send a fully rendered production to your VHS. The first will only be as smooth and glitch-free as the power of your computer allows. If the file is not fully rendered, you will see a jerky rendition as VV30 displays a jerky preview of FX applied to your video.

You can import fully rendered files to the timeline and simply play them out. My guess is that they’ll probably be ok unless your machine simply isn’t up to the through put requirements (mine isn’t), in which case, you’ll get at least a couple of glitches in video or sound. Printing from the timeline and passing the signal to your VHS as I’ve described avoids all this “glitchiness”. I find this ability of VV30 especially useful when I have a long, continuous production that won’t fit onto a 120 size HI-8 tape (limit for DV is 60 minutes). I don’t distribute these HI8 tapes, anyhow, only use them as masters to make the VHS, so, the only downside for me in passing the signal through to my VHS machine is that I don’t have that 8mm master – which means that additional copies have to be run from the computer. It also means that, until I am certain that I won’t need any additional copies, I have to keep the project stored on my HD.

I apologize for the length of my reply . . . but I believe I’ve answered most of your questions . . . and I believe VV30 will answer your needs. Good luck with your project. Hope this reply has helped.

Caruso
karlophone wrote on 12/29/2001, 4:18 PM
wow, thanks for the help! Caruso, to answer your question re: how a 3 min video could render to an 8GB file, im simply selecting the default setting:

Render 720x480x32, 29.970 fps video with 44,100 Hz, 16-bit, Stereo audio

but this is the same settings as NTSC DV, no? anyway, whichever one i render as, im crapping out at the 4 GB limit, and its at about 50 percent done at the time. i can say that viewed on fullscreen, it looks amazing- once you get used to the constant stopping and starting from the codec thingy not being up to snuff.

could it be that RsDvCap, capturing at some superhuman level of quality? i cant see that as being the case- the imported clips dont look *that* amazing, and as Ive said, RsDvCap isnt exactly primo software...

could it be the camera? i was told that the sony i have, with the 3ccd technology is broadcast quality. but this is by no means a really pricey camera, and i imagine half of the people using vv must have at least what ive got.

anyway, it looks like ill be looking into vv3!

let me reiterate one question, which is, in vv2, have others had my problem (even using vegas video capture)? because it seems impossible that until vv3 came around, people werent able to dump their finished projects back to a miniDV camera. i mean, just because i never had to do it before, doesnt mean thousands of other people did. so is it just me?

thanks again for the great advice!

-karl
Caruso wrote on 12/29/2001, 9:00 PM
Karl:
I'm thinking that your files are so large (and the great quality of your rendered files . . . although jerky in playback) is probably because you are rendering (perhaps) with a non-compression type setting.

That setting is available with VV30 (and VV20 also), but, since I already know that files rendered using that setting will be not work with my stuff, I never use it.

You should really check out VV30. The demo version (like most of SF's offerings) is available (and I think fully functional) from this site. You get thirty days to try it out, and either purchase it or let it expire.

Good luck.

Caruso
deef wrote on 12/30/2001, 8:13 PM
You're rendering uncompressed, please choose DV NTSC or DV PAL templates.
karlophone wrote on 12/30/2001, 10:59 PM
Hello again- well, i learned my lessons, and got a demo of vv3 to play with, and yes, the capture section is much easier to deal with than the silly RsDvCap ever was. And, i rendered to NTSC DV format avi, thanks for the heads up there. And, its **almost** working now.. the camera is recording the avi to tape without trouble...

EXCEPT that i cant avoid getting dropped out frames about every 6 seconds, like the file cant make it to the camera consistently. You see a second of the black screen with the sonic foundry logo, then it goes back to printing... and yes it prints the drop out to tape. bah.

So, i went thru the help menus and discovered the options --> properties --> print to tape menu, and adjusted the delay time, up to its max of 20,000 miliseconds (thats 20 seconds?) (i didnt want to take any chances) ...i figured the bigger buffer the better...

and: it definately helped, but its still has frequent breif interruptions, and that of course still yields a useless product at the end of the day. i feel like i need like a 40 second delay, but its not available..or is it???

Any suggestions on how to improve the signal flow via the firewire? am i having a common problem here?

i have tried rendering at "draft" quality as well, just to see if that made a difference, and the same thing happened to that clip too.

one note is that when the automatic fan kicks in on my laptop, it really wreaks havoc. it has a history of sort of pausing operations for a moment while it turns itself on...(this is a dell latitude running windows ME) perhaps theres a setting somewhere to disable the automatic fan thing? (at this point id risk overheating just to get this project in the can!)...but even when the fan is dormant, the stuttering still happens in print to tape.


thanks for the advice so far, im so close i can taste it!!


-karl