Exporting Panasonic TM700 28Mbps 60P With Pro 11

DRuether wrote on 1/24/2012, 10:54 PM

I have two Panasonic TM700 camcorders which are capable of recording very high quality progressive video at 59.940 frames per second. The lens is very sharp - and the results viewed directly from the camcorder on a good HDTV can be spectacularly good. But, then there are two hurdles beyond that point. Even my now-old Vegas Pro 8 (and my friend's cheap Vegas Movie Studio Platinum 10) could import the files (unlike Premiere Pro and Final Cut Pro for a while...), but working with the 28Mbps 1920x1080 "60"P AVCHD material (even though this format is now recognized as part of the AVCHD standard) proved to be quite difficult, unlike HDV. Before moving to the new format, I did some tests and came to the conclusion that the 17Mbps 60I footage shot in the camera was too inferior to bother with, but that the (surprisingly) similar format that the camera could make from original material shot as 28Mbps 60P and then converted to 17Mbps 60I material was surprisingly very good - but it didn't hold up as well to as much post work as original 60P material did, so my preferred choice was to work with 60P.

Since previewing this material could be PAINFUL with my old software (Vegas 8) and hardware (Intel quad-core, without hardware acceleration), I "bit the bullet" and went to Vegas Pro 11 and I built a new fast computer (4.4gHz i7, 16gigs RAM, 480-core video card), and this appeared to perform well enough. Unfortunately, after I had exported 50Mbps MP4s of clips for working with later, I discovered that all of the clips had unacceptable flaws (softness and repeated “buzzy” edges with camera motion). Comparing these clips with the originals on the timeline was VERY upsetting. I tried exporting a 20-second sample clip using MANY different options and variations for format types, and only an AVI file of 5gigs[!] came close to the original's quality. To eliminate hardware problems as a possible cause, I tried slowing the CPU to 3.4gHz, slowing the RAM to 1333 (although it showed no errors at 1600 running overnight with memtest86), and rendering export files with just the CPU and with just the GPU - without improvement. I checked an MP4 video from last year that I had exported from the same type of footage with Vegas Pro 8 or 9 (as 50Mbps 60P files) against the original source clips, and the results were excellent (with no visible problems at all). I tried CyberLink PowerDirector, with the same poor results as with Vegas Pro 11. I also tried Vegas Media Studio HD Platinum 10 - and the results were fine! This indicates to me that the problem is in the software and the rendering acceleration. Any other ideas? If not, I will be giving up on Pro 11 (I never could get the stabilizer to work anyway, and having it was one of the two reasons for updating to Pro 11) and going back to an earlier version of Vegas Pro. I hope I can save much of the work done with Pro 11 on my current project...

--DR

Comments

johnmeyer wrote on 1/25/2012, 12:10 AM

I just killed a week trying to edit 60p on Vegas 10.0e. I will never do that again.

So what to do?

Install the GoPro Cineform on Vegas 8.0c. Convert all your footage to Cineform (this will go pretty quickly). Edit that on Vegas 8.0c and then render to the format of your choice. You can delete the Cineform intermediates when you are done. Only downside is the time to convert to Cineform and the temporary storage required to hold the large Cineform intermediates. The upside is that you can edit these even on your older computer. And the major upside, of course, is that Vegas 8.0c is stable, unlike Vegas 10 and Vegas 11, which are not.

amendegw wrote on 1/25/2012, 4:02 AM

"I discovered that all of the clips had unacceptable flaws (softness and repeated “buzzy” edges with camera motion)."I shoot in 1080 60p with my TM700 all the time. I've read & re-read you post a couple of times and my old mind is have a hard time getting around exactly what your are doing. However, the quoted statement above seems to suggest that you are seeing a problem I have also seen. That is, given 60p source, you must "Disable Resample" when rendering to anything other than 59.97 fps or you will see the symptoms you describe.

Discussed here http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=795126Project & render settings for YouTube from 60p?[/link] and here http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=795226Whither Smart Resample[/link]

Also, I wrote a script that helps me in effort: SetResample.zip

If I misunderstood your problem, please post back.

...Jerry

NickHope wrote on 1/25/2012, 4:18 AM

Hey 60p shooters, do your cams allow you to set the shutter at 1/60 when shooting 60p (i.e. 360-degree shutter angle), so that it can easily become a so-called "standard" 1/60 @ 30p (180-degree shutter) for web use by dropping alternate frames, thereby giving a bit of motion blur and avoiding choppiness?

I'm also interested to know what the default shutter on these cams is at 60p.

amendegw wrote on 1/25/2012, 4:57 AM

Nick,

I'm pretty sure my TM700 defaults to 1/60 sec, although I'm not positive of that.

When I'm in Auto mode, there are no indications of shutter speed. However, if I switch from Auto to Manual, the starting point for adjustments appears to be whatever Auto has set - and shutter is set at 1/60 sec (for 60p).

Maybe I'm just looking in the wrong spot?

...Jerry

DRuether wrote on 1/25/2012, 8:58 AM

Jerry wrote:
"I shoot in 1080 60p with my TM700 all the time. I've read & re-read you post a couple of times and my old mind is have a hard time getting around exactly what your are doing. However, the quoted statement above seems to suggest that you are seeing a problem I have also seen. That is, given 60p source, you must "Disable Resample" when rendering to anything other than 59.97 fps or you will see the symptoms you describe."

Thanks - and it looked like this worked, BUT...! Sigh, after right-clicking on a test 59.970P (original) clip from the TM700 and deselecting "smart resample", rendering it (as I always do, to 59.970fps), then playing the resulting 50Mbps 1080P MP4 back on the timeline frame-by-frame (which results in near-perfect results using Pro 8/9), the new clip revealed that while alternate frames were now fine, the others still had the original problems. This is most easily seen by having both the original clip and the rendered clip in synch on the timeline one over the other, making track switching easy for comparing the two at the frame level.
--DR

amendegw wrote on 1/25/2012, 9:07 AM

I'm somewhat befuddled. Can you post the MediaInfo stats for your mp4?

And, do your project properties look like this?

...Jerry

DRuether wrote on 1/25/2012, 9:38 AM

My project properties are as shown in your post. I use MainConcept AVC/AAC 50Mbps MP4 to export files. In that one, the specifications are --
Frame size: HD 1080P
Profile: Main
Frame rate: 59.940000
Allow source to adjust frame rate: checked
Field order: None (Progressive scan)
Number of reference frames: 1
Constant bit rate: 50,000,000
Encode mode: Automatic
I have tried variations on the above (and making custom templates for all the other available possibilities in Vegas that would permit 59.940fps and 50Mbps - and I also tried a couple of ones that limited frame rate to 29.970 interlaced or data rate to 35Mbps) without improving the result (except with a HUGE 5gig AVI file from exporting a 20 second clip). Trying a custom Sony AVC template, I could not get the data rate high enough for what I wanted (and the results were also poor). Various things like settings limitations (in addition to poor results) reduced the choice of usable file export types to essentially zero. Using the same templates in Pro 8 and 9 resulted in VERY nearly perfect files, unlike the mostly terrible ones I've been getting in Pro 11...
--DR

amendegw wrote on 1/25/2012, 10:08 AM

DR,

I'm more than befuddled now, I'm stumped. Take a look at the following screencast and see if I'm duplicating your workflow.

...Jerry

johnmeyer wrote on 1/25/2012, 10:39 AM

Allow source to adjust frame rate: checked Ah, that's your problem. BOTH of these "Allow source ..." check boxes should be UN-checked.

DRuether wrote on 1/25/2012, 1:18 PM

Tah-DAH!!! It WORKED! I went back to permitting "Smart resample" (leaving it disabled resulted in alternating sharp/less-sharp frames), but I left the "Allow source to adjust frame rate" box unchecked in the MainConcept MP4 render dialogue box - and all was GOOD! BTW, where is the other "Allow source..." check box?
THANKS TO ALL! And, WHEW! I can now proceed with the project with Pro 11.
--DR

johnmeyer wrote on 1/25/2012, 1:28 PM

I left the "Allow source to adjust frame rate" box unchecked in the MainConcept MP4 render dialogue box - and all was GOOD! BTW, where is the other "Allow source..." check box?It should appear in both the MainConcept and Sony AVC (MP4) dialog boxes, as shown below. Both should be unchecked. I'm not sure what good thing can happen when you check these boxes, but I do know that a huge number of bad things happen when they are checked.

amendegw wrote on 1/25/2012, 1:36 PM

Ahhhh... John has Eagle eyes for noticing that (he also has as much experience with Vegas as nearly anyone in this forum).

One thing still confuses me though, "I went back to permitting "Smart resample" (leaving it disabled resulted in alternating sharp/less-sharp frames)," ?? However, all's well that ends well - don't touch a thing.

...Jerry

DRuether wrote on 1/25/2012, 1:39 PM

DUH....! 8^) Sometimes I think I can't see...! :-{
THANKS!
--DR