I disagree Bill,
BOTH of you are here to help. Doug has helped a lot of people here as well as you have. I don't see where any condescending comments are warranted by either of you. I have never understood why some of the most valuable people on these forums are at each other's throats so much.

John

I have learnt loads on this forum - and you know what? Quite a bit aint about Vegas. However, it it is ALL about communicating clearly an idea or concept. Don't get any better than that - good people!

The easiest thing is to spread joy . . . the hardest thing is not to!

Thanks to all who gave me recognition what I said.

Take care,

Grazie. .


ps . . My internal monitor says I need some grub!

Please fellas, Things was getting quite civil here. Now the rubber band seems to be tightening again. lets just leave it at that. I respect both of your opinions and debeting is ok but it always turns it to the deeper issue. If you have hard feelings toward each other leave that somewhere else. This issue has been brought up many times before with same conclusion or confusion
depending on what side your standing on. I've seen very good info from everyone here.
Lets quit beating the old dead horse :)

Jimmy

Grazie, an easy way to tell if your internal monitor is calibrated...

If it is, you'll crave fruits, vegetables and lean meat.
If it isn't, it's junk food you'll crave.

My girlfriend is always asking me to have mine calibrated.

Mario

Mario, if thats the case mine will suffer, from perpetual calibration.
Speaking of which, its time to calibrate. ( for the 3rd time today )

Jimmy ( the hungry )

"Have you ever worked on a a televison commercial or program that has aired at the national level?"

I have. I worked in the top audio production house in Michigan doing national and local advertising work. You ever do any work on a TV commercial that has been aired during the Super Bowl? I have. In fact for 3 years straight I was the guy recording the Disney commercial VO's that aired immediately after the Superbowl. "John Elway you just won the Superbowl, what are you going to do next?" Yep, some of my national work. Michigan happens to be in the top three locations within the U.S. for advertising work being generated, due to the large automotive industry presence, surrounded by quite a few advertising agency home bases. Cambell Ewald, have you ever worked with them? Only one of, if not the largest advertising agencies in the U.S. How about Doner? Ever hear of them? How about Bozell Worldwide? Jackson Dawson? Any of these names ring a bell in your professional world you live in? Aside from our home based 13 room audio production studios, we had 2 seperate audio post studios setup in 2 of the major local video editing studios, so clients didn't have to walk so far once they finished editing their video together and had to do the audio post production. In addition to that we did audio post work for ALL the major video editing studios in the area. Of all those "professional" video editing studios I've done work with, NONE of them ever used Vegas to do their work. The majority of their work was done on Avid systems and in the non Avid rooms they where running Premiere Pro or FCP. Why do I mention this? Because, the same argument you're making about professional monitors can be made by those "professional" video studios I've worked in that they relied on a "professional" tool and that tool was NOT Vegas. So why aren't you using the more professional tool, Avid? Is it because you can't afford the $150K "professional" tool, yet found something a lot more economical that gives you what you consider to be just as good results? Hmmmmm? Wonder where we've heard that advice and scenario before? Well how can you even consider yourself to be "professional", when you're not using the tool that major professionals use? Those "professional" studios would laugh at the concept of using Vegas to do their work. Kind of like you're laughing at the prospect of not using a professional monitor. The primary tape formats in this industry are D-8, D-6's, Digital Beta, and the bottom of the line being Beta SP. How many D-8 tape machines do you own in your "professional" tool setup with that professional monitor you're using? That tape machine only costs $80K the last time I checked. How about a D-6? That one you can get for a measly $40-$50K. I haven't heard you mention anything about owning one of these professional industry standard tape machines. How can you ever put out professional results using Vegas and not even owning a professional quality tape machine to lay it off too?

So Mike, how about I ask you a few simple questions? How many Avid sytems do you own? How many D-8 tape machines do you own? What are you using if you're not using this professional equipment?

Wow!! Grab a few hours of sleep & get tied up in a morning meeting and all he** breaks loose around here :-)

To BillyBoy: I'm getting tired of you putting down those of us that use a "professional" monitor. We use it because it gives us a known standard to work from. There is no difference between this and a printer who has a Pantone book that they refer to constantly.
I know how to calibrate my monitor and have been doing so for years and encourage others to do likewise. As you have said, it makes no sense to have a good tool and not know how to use it properly.
I'm constantly disappointed with the poor quality of work that is being sold to some clients because the editor relied on either their computer monitor or an improperly set up TV set. Yes, a TV can be used in a pinch but I'd rather have a monitor that I can trust day in and out. It's just another tool in my video production tool kit.
The bottom line is to use what you can afford. Others in this thread (thanks Grazie, Richard & Bob) have pointed out the value of using pro monitors. If you can afford one, that's great. Please take the time to learn how to use it properly and you'll be a happy camper :-)

Mike

Brian, the question was directed to BillyBoy, not you. Since you joined the forum here recently, I 've gained a lot of respect for you and your extensive knowledge.

Let me ask you if you think your work would be as good if you were restricted to a set of $50 speakers and a $10 mic? On the assumption that the answer is no, this is the reason why many of us here prefer to use a video monitor that we know and trust. Is it more money? Of course it is but you get what you pay for. We use it for the same reason that you use certain brands of speakers and microphones for your work. It gets the job done properly.

To answer your questions, I do not own any Avid systems or D-8 tape machines. I currently work at a local community college in Windsor, Ontario and we have 3 Vegas as well as 2 dpsVelocity suites, primarily for student use. I also do production work for the college community ranging from departmental videos to promotional videos used across the province.
I do some freelance work in the area as well and this is where most of my commercial experience comes from.

The day of "it has to be edited on an Avid" is, IMO, long gone. Read the Vegas forums here and elsewhere and you find out that people are using the tools they have available to get the job done. I'm not saying that Vegas can do the work of a Symphony or a Flame but, for most of us, it more than meets our needs.

BTW, I know most of the Michigan agencies you spoke of as I'm a member of the Detroit SMPTE chapter. It's possible we may have run into each other at some point over the years.

Mike

"Read the Vegas forums here and elsewhere and you find out that people are using the tools they have available to get the job done. I'm not saying that Vegas can do the work of a Symphony or a Flame but, for most of us, it more than meets our needs."

Ok Mike, you've just made my point. I only wish you would realize the irony in what you are saying then. There is a wide variety of users in this forum. BB's advice and knowledge benefits me as well as other users. I want to expand my workflow in the Video editing area. I already own Vegas which I'm using for audio.....why? Because, at the time I started using it, I couldn't afford a full blown Protools system and I evaluated Vegas and considered I could get similar if not better results. I understand the need to use an external monitor over just relying on your PC monitor. Currently I can't justify buying a professional monitor, because I'm doing it for my own personal interests, and who knows if it works out and I start doing paying jobs on the side, maybe I will. Nobody ever said a standard TV monitor is better than a professional monitor. What I'm interested in knowing then, is IF I'm using a standard monitor, then what are the things I need to consider by not having a professional monitor and how can I overcome the problems I may run into when not using my non pro monitor? BB's advice is the best advice I've seen in this forum and it comes from experience in using both. Have you ever even tried using a non professional monitor in your setup to see how good of quality you can achieve with it? Have you tried to calibrate it also?

If you're not getting the irony in your statements then let me edit it for you to pertain to this subject and in this very forum you're having this discussion.

"Read the Vegas forums here and elsewhere and you find out that people are using the tools they have available to get the job done. I'm not saying that A NON PRO MONITOR can do the work of a PROFESSIONAL MONITOR but, for most of us, it more than meets our needs."

Those are your words substitued with the debate of Pro vs non pro monitor discussion. Yet, you criticize BB for his advice and then question his credibility and type of work he's doing? Sorry, I don't get your logic in this manor because it is not consistent.

"I wish ... the forum collectively would tell you that this place isn't suppose to about you and what you're doing, have done or will do. "


Billy, if it was up to the forum to collectively decide, you probably wouldn't like the results.

I doubt most of this board thinks you "keep a low profile" and "are just here to help."

Also this is a classic, instance of your argument style. You claimed Douglas didn't know what he was talked about and didn't have experience. Douglass replies that your assumption is wrong and explains why giving the his experience and his qualifications, WHICH he only did to refute your false assumption. So you then change the subject. Rather than say, I guess I was wrong, you attack him, claiming he is trying to make the forum all about him. It's similiar to when you were asking if you had worked on any nationally broadcast stuff, you change the subject to your retirement from a previous career which, correct me if I am wrong, was not in video. Your next step will be playing the victim of the mob mentality.

Billy, I have stayed out of a lot of these threads, because they wind up being about heat and not light and anything becomes the reason for another spark. When you talk about the noise on the forum, have you asked yourself, how much is directly traceable to posts you are involved in? When you put "professional" in quotes or tell people a pro monitor is marketing BS it's confrontational because you're calling a bunch of users on this forum dupes who have been scammed. Do you think that will cause any noise? I do.

For newbies, who are coming across this thread, I think the valuable information is from the people who have posted about their experiences after having moved from a TV to a pro monitor and how much it's affected their work.

For the record, my own setup I use a consumer TV and speakers. However I have worked with pro video and audio monitors and I know how far I can go up. When I pay off a few bills, I will step up.

"To BillyBoy: I'm getting tired of you putting down those of us that use a "professional" monitor"

To Bob, I never have. Just once, before jumping to conclusions, try reading what my tutorials on the topic actually say.

Further, it would be interesting if you or some other "professional" here commented on what Red said regarding Avid and other ultra high end software/hardware used by professional studios.

If one is to accept your faulty logic at face value, namely that a more professional monitor allows you to create a more professional product, then please explain how Vegas not being the top dog and rarely if ever used by any name houses or the big boys in Hollywood, how then can your work be as "professional" as there's using your own argument that to see flaws, and get the most out of what you're doing, you need to use the best.

Vegas isn't the "best"software if you only consider price or features. By your own logic you hang yourself. So I guess I'll need to infer that while you and others claim that you are "professionals", obviously not as professional as those that use Avid since they are using far more professional tools, because they cost more, have features Vegas doesn't, that by your logic means they're "better" ergo, they by your wacky logic must be doing more professional work. Of course I don't mean that, I'm just using your own convoluted logic against you.

"The bottom line is to use what you can afford".

Which is exactly what I SAY in my tutorials if your would have bothered to read them. Obviously you didn't bother. ROTFLMAO!

The real bottom line isn't which tools you use, rather how well you use the tools you have. Someone using a $140K Avid can still produce crappy video. Someone using Vegas or something less can make extraordinary video. The same holds true for monitors. Having some expensive monitor may make your work easier, it can't make you a better editor or by iself make your video better. I'm sorry, by I do chuckle when somebody drags out the professional card and his basis is he's got a professional monitor, implying that make him more professional than the next guy. Again its how well you use the tools you have, not the cost of the tools that matters.