External TV Monitor: The subject that will not die

RichMacDonald wrote on 12/29/2003, 1:21 PM

It seems this subject resurfaces once a week. Will it ever end?

Spot, I bought your book over Xmas, since a little money was burning a hole in my pocket and I hate to leave a bookstore empty-handed (along with the Wiggles movie for my daughter :-)...I think this is the one obvious place where your book comes up short. Looking at the large number of posts on the subject, the standard responses never quite satisfactory, and the questions repeated, half a page just wasn't enough. Its a beaten subject, but it won't die. A definitive article on the subject is still lacking.

*Why* would a professional never use the TV out of his/her video card? If one decides to go ahead anyway, what are the pitfalls and are there any cards which do better than others?

I don't want to hack my TRV900 to provide video passthrough (many have been unable to do it successfully), plus its inconvenient to hook the camera in.(*) Given I have an OHCI card (or firewire support from the motherboard), what are these "other converter devices"?

(*) Additionally, I learned the hard way that running the camera and hooking up the battery charger simultaneously will kill your battery in less than 6 months.

In short, what are the various alternatives for TV preview? From the "you might already have all you need, albeit flawed" to the "here is how the pros do it".

P.S. Yes I also know how to search this forum, but sometimes the more that is written the more it gets confusing. I believe I'm not alone :-)

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Comments

BD wrote on 12/31/2003, 9:13 AM

I'm a wanna-be videoguy who's never earned a nickel at it, but who loves doing it ("amateur" = "lover of").

I now wish that I'd bought a pro monitor -- after wasting $300 on a 13" so-called "pro-line" monitor, wasting $400 on a 25" Sony TV to replace the uncorrectibly inaccurate pro-line monitor, and wasting hundreds of hours by re-editing and re-re-editing my color/brightness corrections in order to finally get results that appear to be OK on some other peoples' TV sets.

Now I don't have the bucks to buy a pro monitor that can be accurately calibrated to meet a standard (so I wouldn't constantly be second-guessing my results). I've tried "calibrating" our home TV sets (using an Avia DVD), but they all look different: the contrast varies widely, and the reds are exaggerated, due to their consumer-level circuitry.

I know what a picture ought to look like, but don't know if I'm seeing it!

Happy New Year, everyone,

Brandon's Dad

MarkFoley wrote on 12/31/2003, 10:27 AM

SPOT/All,
I just ordered a Sony PVM-14L. from B&H...hope it was a good choice/compromise for a editor on a small budget....
Mark

Spot|DSE wrote on 12/31/2003, 11:11 AM

Very nice monitor! You'll be thrilled, and very happy. drop a note when you get it!

BillyBoy wrote on 12/31/2003, 11:52 AM

BD, it doesn't matter if you bought a $80 TV or a $5,000 monitor. If whatever you bought isn't properly calibrated, (none are out of the box) you may as well have Stevie Wonder or Ray Charles do the color correction for you. They would get just as good results guessing.

craftech wrote on 12/31/2003, 11:59 AM

What's the big deal about scan lines anyway? The monitor is needed primarily to color correct and get a better view than a preview window will give you for placing titles, watching effects, etc. You don't need 525 lines for that, just a TV or monitor which will adjust contrast, brightness, color, and tint well. You also don't need it to tell if the amount of added gaussian blur is sufficient either. Or underscan unless you are into giant letters for titles. Or a blue only gun unless you are allergic to Rosco gels.
If you are using a field monitor, they are usually small. Most small TVs or monitors appear sharper anyway.

John

farss wrote on 12/31/2003, 2:48 PM

Here's a simple suggestion to alleviate a lot of the pain.
Move to Australia.
Here we have this wonderful thing called Phase Alternate Line (PAL).
Our TVs don't have tint or hue adjustments as the system keeps the color in phase by design. Oh and you get another 92 lines of horizontal resolution.
Apart from that other advantages include:
McDonalds here makes better burgers.
Worlds best taxpayer funded fireworks.
Damn fine beer.
Prime Minister who's interchangeable with GWB to make you feel at home.
Try arriving on a leaky boat and win a free stay on a tropical island.

Sorry, just couldn't resist :)

PS: If you're really serious of course you could move to France, even better video but you loose all the other advantages.

BillyBoy wrote on 12/31/2003, 2:55 PM

Farss got the right idea. Those of us in the silly world of NTSC, should move to PAL land. Summer just starting down under, right?

farss wrote on 12/31/2003, 3:41 PM

BB,
we're right in the midle of it.

One thing I forgot to mention, no chance of a white christmas down here. Xmas day was very hot.

Spot|DSE wrote on 12/31/2003, 3:46 PM

Ahhhh....PAL.... (Picture At Last) Yup, I'm loving the stuff we shot on that last Aussie tour with Mark from New Magic and Ben from Intellifex. David Hague sent me some really fun race footage too, but damn, doing key work on PAL is a bear! 4:2:0 will kill ya in that world! We shot a bunch of stuff to play with, and I can pull a key, but it takes a fair amount of work to get it clean. For compositing and color correction, I'll stick with NTSC.
Micky D's does make better breakfasts there, 'specially the tomato, and I like the pie vendors on the street corners, but what's really good is the fish. The PowerHouse guys kept taking me for fish, I became an addict.

farss wrote on 12/31/2003, 5:44 PM

If you're into fish (which I'm not but the wife is) then yes, this is the place for it.
My travels in the US were limited to SF and Yosemite but it made me very appreciative of why the US is a very different country to here. It wasn't until I saw the vertical scale of El Capitan that I started to realise how much how we view the world can be influenced by the geography of where we live.
Mind you the whole trip was kind of skewed, I'd done one week in Bombay, two days back home and then flew to SF, major cultural shock! Got into back seat of in-laws BMW at SF airport and couldn't figure out how they could steer a car with no steering wheel :)

Only thing I saw in the US that put me off, the number of ex vets begging for money on Fishermans Wharf, as someone who was opposed to what they served for, I'll still say they deserve better. I try not to stick my nose into other countries politics but that got to me

riredale wrote on 12/31/2003, 9:59 PM

Farss:

If you ever get the chance, do a month-long cross-country of the US from, say, L.A. to Boston. The people in the "fly-over" middle of the country are very different from the folks you met in SF. Best to wait until June, when it will be nice and warm up here again.

I agree, Yosemite is an amazing place. Can you imagine that deep valley filled with one enormous glacier during the last ice age?

My wife has always wanted to see New Zealand. Don't know why--she's not particularly fond of sheep.

farss wrote on 12/31/2003, 10:37 PM

I actually quite liked the folks in SF, I was staying with the in-laws who are Chinese so it was a pretty odd experience all up. But yes the USA is one place I want to get back to and spend a lot more time there.
A few months ago we hired cameras to an Australian crew who did the Route 66 trip, mainly to get footage of those who live along it. Got me thinking about going back and travelling the back roads with time to spare.

I've travelled China from east to west, mostly by train. I'd highly recommend that to anyone with a camera. Got to see Circarama in a theatre (http://cinerama.topcities.com/circarama.htm) in Xian except it used the earlier version with 11 cameras.

MarkFoley wrote on 1/8/2004, 4:09 AM

I just received my Sony PVM-14...wow, I can't believe I used standard TVs as external monitors...I believe it was a good investment....

craftech wrote on 1/8/2004, 5:09 AM

Congrats,
It's a great monitor. I've seen it at B&H where you ordered it from.
One thing I don't like about B&H is that they sit on the orders for several days before they ship it out. Most of the time I pick up what I need there in person. I hate ordering from them because it often takes more than a week to receive the items and I live only 40 miles from the store.
I shouldn't complain though because they are one of the very few camera/electronics stores in the New York City which are honest.

John

vegemite wrote on 1/8/2004, 5:19 AM

Hi everyone
It pretty well all has been said by now, and I agree with most of it, especially what was said by Spot. Just for your information, I am converting using a TRV-900E (PAL version) and it works just fine. I admit I would prefer to use the Canopus ADVC-100 but, being retired these days, the $500 to $700 they cost in Australia is a bit steep just now! Best wishes from down-under -- this has to be one of the best forums on the web!

MarkFoley wrote on 1/8/2004, 6:47 AM

John,
I had the monitor in my hands three days (using the cheapest shipping) after I ordered it from B&H...(in georgia)

craftech wrote on 1/8/2004, 8:50 AM

John,
I had the monitor in my hands three days (using the cheapest shipping) after I ordered it from B&H...(in georgia)
===========================
It's been a year, maybe tings have improved. Still, I'd rather pick it up since I have to pay the tax anyway and I'm in the city 5177t. Glad to hear they shipped promptly.
Regards,
John

FuTz wrote on 1/8/2004, 9:39 AM

Hi! I just get in this discussion cause I really don't have good monitor: a very old 12" tv set (rca xl-100 if you wanna have a good laugh by "googling" it...). My question is this one: with my Lee color filters, which blue# should I choose to *try* to calibrate this 12" wonder?
Thanks very much.

"If you're really serious of course you could move to France, even better video but you loose all the other advantages."

Yeah farss, but *there* you *really* don't have to go eat clown' sh*t in a McDo'... ! Sorry, couldn't resist ! Was in Coolgardie, Kalgoorlie, Cowra and surroundings all the way passing by Sydney and Perth 3 years ago. Good meals: in Sydney and Perth. Good beer: **everywhere**. Which tells a lot about Australians concerns about life... we have so much in common hahaha! :'D
Grrr... wish I was on one of these camels instead of in the freeze right now... or swimming... with the sharks... no... body surfing my azz out ! cheers !

craftech wrote on 1/8/2004, 10:22 AM

My question is this one: with my Lee color filters, which blue# should I choose to *try* to calibrate this 12" wonder?
Thanks very much.
------------------------------------

Officially it's a Wratten 47B or a Rosco # 80 (primary blue). Closest would be a Lee #079.
A better alternative would be to pick up either the Avia Guide to Home Theater DVD or the Discwasher Home Theater Setup Disc. The Avia disc comes with gels, but both are very good for calibration.

John

FuTz wrote on 1/8/2004, 11:01 AM

Thanks craftech, I'll go see in my backroom if there's an old Rosco sample booklet somewhere in my boxes...and check with Lee#79 too. :D

PainterPaul wrote on 1/8/2004, 2:57 PM

Hello,

Can anyone suggest or point me towards basic source material which covers the fundamentals of hooking up a second monitor, so I can get a small, cheap TV set to work as my preview window? (Strictly for real-estate purposes right now) Can this be done through Firewire and a dv cam? If so, please point me in the right direction…

Thank you!

FuTz wrote on 1/8/2004, 3:12 PM

Basic setup with Vegas: you hook up your DV camera to the computer via FireWire cable and from your camera, you go to your TV set with appropriate cable, usually 1/8" to 3 RCA plugs.
Then, you activate the Monitor Switch in Vegas and you *should* get a preview in your TV set (and a black window in Vegas with "external preview" written in red inside).
Oh yeah, you switch your camera to "VTR", NOT in "camera" position.

PainterPaul wrote on 1/8/2004, 3:28 PM

Futz,

Thanks! Works like a charm!

Spot|DSE wrote on 1/8/2004, 7:48 PM

Glad to hear you're happy w/the monitor, Foleym. Makes a HUGE difference, doesn't it? Moreover, if you have any old media around in a finished state, compare the two after you've color corrected and edited on the new one, particularly titles. Report back. i think you'll be shocked.