FINAL QUESTION before mastering DVD

S35 wrote on 2/19/2015, 12:53 PM

Hi, I've read a lot of the recent posts on here about leveling your rendered output, but I'm still a little confused.

We've edited a film by creating a custom window layout where Vegas' preview window sits on our HDTV. I like the way the image looks, so to preserve that look, do I still need to add the Levels preset "Computer RGB to Studio RGB" before rendering to NTSC Mpeg-2 for DVD? I ask because my DVD player produces images that look identical to Vegas' preview window (provided all settings on the player are at neutral and contrast is set to -2).

However, when the same DVD was played once on a laptop connected to a consumer DLP projector, the bright whites were insanely blown-out. I wasn't sure if it was the fault of the software media player, the projector, or the fact that no "Computer RGB to Studio RGB" preset was applied before rendering. Given that, as I said, the DVD looked good on my TV and when played through a 3LCD projector, I blame the DLP projector or the software player.

What do you think?

Thanks for any advice. I'm making the final render today.

Comments

Jerry K wrote on 2/19/2015, 1:24 PM

For the final render you must turn off Computer RGB to Studio RGB.
If you are seeing blow out on your laptop connection to a consumer DLP I would try a few store bought DVDs to determine if the problem is in your setup.

How do you have the laptop hooked up to the the DLP.

Jerry K.

S35 wrote on 2/19/2015, 1:42 PM

Thanks, Jerry, for your response and for the clarification. This scenario actually dated back to 2 years ago, but the laptop was hooked up via HDMI. It wasn't my laptop. However, the experience left me concerned about what settings to use for mastering this new movie that I'm about to render.

Again, thanks very much for the response!

Peter100 wrote on 2/19/2015, 2:46 PM

Generally if the source footage has 16-235 color range, then you don't need to use Computer RGB -> Studio RGB filter.

What you want to get is 16-235 output color range. If source image is 0-255 then you "squeeze" it to 16-235 with Computer RGB -> Studio RGB filter.
But if your source image is 16-235, you do not "squeeze" it to 16-235 because you will deform it and the result wil be a dull image.

However the best seems to be the Musicvid10's solution discussed in previous threads (Edit in 0-255, then squeeze to 16-235 just before rendering).

Jerry K wrote on 2/19/2015, 4:13 PM

I believe you can only edit in 0-255 if you have a camera/camcorder that records in 0-255. All my equipment only recorders in 16-235 please correct me if i'm wrong.

Jerry K.

Peter100 wrote on 2/19/2015, 4:56 PM

Vegas Pro works in Computer RGB color space (0-255). If you edit 16-235 footage, for example use some leveling, it may happen that you move part of your colorspace outside 16-235.
Also if you use text (for example Titlex & Text), the default text color is superwhite (255) that is outside Studio RGB colorspace (16-235).

For better understanding the problem, please read these two threads.

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?Forum=4&MessageID=917913

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=918017

VidMus wrote on 2/19/2015, 5:18 PM

@Jerry K

How you edit depends on what your cameras shoot with. All of my Sony cameras shoot 16 to 255. There are cameras that shoot 16 to 235 and can also shoot other ranges. There are other cameras that shoot at different ranges as well. There was a thread a while back asking what range users cameras shoot with and there were various answers.

There is no one size fits all way to edit video. For my videos and the way I edit, it is best to use 16 to 235 after bringing the levels above 235 down. I simply use Sony levels to do this. Works great and brings the bright details down to safe levels. I could simply use the broadcast filter but that destroys the details that are initially above 235. The details above 235 are not destroyed when using Sony levels.

One needs to find what works best for the cameras they use and work with that.

At this time, the final results should be 16 to 235 for compatibility with the numerous whatever's out there.

I personally wish they would drop compatibility with the old CRT TV's and go with 0 to 255 and allow a little more room for dynamic range. Right now one has to squeeze the video into a very limited range by messing with the color curves or whatever one chooses to work with. Sort of an artificial way to get more dynamic range than what there is.

Backward compatibility has put very heavy weights on new technology over the years.

Hey Sony, the next firmware update for my CX-900 will allow more shooting options and an upgrade it to 4k. OK?

Jerry K wrote on 2/19/2015, 10:04 PM

What I was trying to say was most prosumer and consumer camcorders in the NTSC world records black at 7.5 IRE to 100 IRE for white levels which = RGB 16 - 235 and most of these camcorders do not give us a choice.

When using this footage in Sony Vegas you need to use the Sony fx filter, computer RGB to studio RGB which tricks our computer preview in thinking it's seeing RGB 0 - 255.
With out the filter our preview footage will look dull and washed out. We all know this filter needs to be turned off when rendering.

Now if you have a camera that can record RGB 0 - 255 your preview should look normal with out using any filters but you will probably need one for rendering.

Why Sony put the burden on us knowing we are all using computers for editing and for the most part camcorders that record studio levels is beyond me. I wonder if other editing software companies make you turn FX filters on for correct preview levels and off for rendering?

Jerry K.

Marc S wrote on 2/20/2015, 1:14 AM

Learn to LOVE your scopes!

VidMus wrote on 2/20/2015, 5:24 AM

Jerry K said, "What I was trying to say was most prosumer and consumer camcorders in the NTSC world records black at 7.5 IRE to 100 IRE for white levels which = RGB 16 - 235 and most of these camcorders do not give us a choice."

Every Sony consumer and prosumer camera that I have ever had/have is 16 to 255. This includes my CX-900. None of them are 16 to 235.

If one uses a second computer monitor to view their videos then one can right click on the the display and then find a menu that allows you to set studio RGB to computer RGB on the display monitor. Then the display will not look dull and be washed out. And THEN one does not have to mess with the settings before rendering. How easy is that?

Still, it is necessary for me to bring the video levels that are above 235 down to 235 to prevent loss of details. I can use Sony levels or the color curves to do this.

Now, with that said, there is the problem of text and graphics being 0 to 255. One needs a way to make them match their video levels. I can simply put all the text and graphics on separate tracks from the video(s) and put Sony Levels on those tracks that makes them go from computer RGB to studio RGB. So all of the text and graphics will then be at the same levels as the videos.

All I need to then do is edit the project with What I See Is What I Get and then render WITHOUT having to remember to change anything!

So in a nutshell:

Display adjusted for studio RGB to computer RGB on my second monitor. This can also be done for full screen on a single monitor but editing with a single monitor is a no go.

Video tracks have Sony Levels to bring the video levels above 235 down to 235 and lower to make them legal and to prevent loss of details.

Graphic and text tracks have Sony Levels to make them go from computer RGB to studio RGB.

Everything displays correctly on the external monitor and there is no need to remember to make changes before rendering.

S35 wrote on 2/20/2015, 7:05 AM

Thanks everyone for the helpful responses!

~Adam

Jerry K wrote on 2/20/2015, 8:49 AM

Regardless if our camcorders record in RGB 16 - 235 or 16 - 255 one thing for sure my camcorder and most camcorders record studio level and not computer level. Sony Vegas preview is setup for computer levels and needs a FX filter to correct the preview quality and turned off before rendering.

Checking video levels with the RGB scope does not work for me. I use the waveform monitor set at 7.5 IRE to 100 IRE using Sony NTSC SMPTE color bars for setup. I've been using the waveform monitor for over 30 years and find it works best for me.

Jerry K.

VidMus wrote on 2/20/2015, 11:57 AM

"Sony Vegas preview is setup for computer levels and needs a FX filter to correct the preview quality and turned off before rendering."

I do not use the little Sony Vegas preview. I use an external computer monitor. I have a new calibrated IPS (In-plane switching) computer monitor with native 1920x1080 resolution. I love the wide viewing angles!!! This gives me a display that is as close to What You See Is What You Get as possible from an LCD monitor. Sometime in the future I will consider 4k when I have something called money again.

I would never want to edit and adjust my colors using the little Sony Vegas preview. Even if I expand that thing, I still would not want to use it. Yes, it is setup for computer RGB but why use something that is setup for computer RGB when you can use something that can be setup for studio RGB? And also not have to remember to reset the levels when it is time to render?

My memory is poor at best and if I have to remember something, I can pretty much count on forgetting it and then after a very long render, I see that I forgot and end-up having to do it over again. And that has happened numerous times. So I found a way to see the video the way I need to and also get the results I want. And not have something I have to remember.

I will do this my way, the easiest way. You can do it your way, the way that takes an extra step to remember.

VidMus wrote on 2/20/2015, 12:08 PM

"I use the waveform monitor set at 7.5 IRE to 100 IRE using Sony NTSC SMPTE color bars for setup."

Because the waveform monitor does not have a 7.5 IRE marker and it is hard for me to see, I turn off the 7.5 IRE and simply use zero for 16. Part of the PLUGE will go below the zero line.

I prefer to do it right with the 7.5 IRE but since Sony chose to do it wrong and not put a marker there I decided to do it this way. The histogram is does not work for me.

The RGB parade is best for color correcting if one knows how to use it. I previously posted links to excellent explanations on how to use them.

I have been using waveform monitors for years as well.

So we mostly much agree about using the waveform monitor.

S35 wrote on 2/20/2015, 4:55 PM

Thanks again to everyone for your help. It looks like I'll need to apply a Computer RGB to Studio RGB levels plug-in before rendering, after all... as my DVD player when set to "normal" (not custom -2 contrast) and Power DVD 10 both show the "computer RGB"-look on my film.

Also interesting to note, Power DVD appears to show the image squeezed slightly horizontally. I did not have the "Stretch Video to fill output frame size" checked when rendering from 1920 x 1080 to 720 x 480. Should I have? I can't tell on my DVD player if it's squeezed or not. I thought the slight pillar-boxing would be preferable over an horizontally stretched image.