Flash/Alien Frame Problem Continues- now one in Gary K's new DVDA training disc SONY PLEASE READ

GmElliott wrote on 8/19/2004, 6:46 AM

A while back I posted about the apparent problem Vegas has with flash frames (or "alien frames") - where during editing you'll see a quick single frame from a clip or media that doesn't belong. Often times it's overlooked and makes it to the final output which is very frusterating. I was somewhat oddly consoled when I saw Spot's Vegas FASST DVD and there were a few of these "flash frames" in there. Now I just finished the first disc in Gary Kleiners new DVDA2 training disks and theres one in there. While he's talking at one point the screen flashes...it's so quick it's hard to tell what happened. I went back frame by frame and clear as day there is a single frame from a "clouds" graphic he used earlier in the project.

I'm just a bit frustrated because I had two of my recent projects fall victim to this problem- and it made it to final output, and apparently I'm not the only one having this problem...as two farily high profile Vegas evangelists/traniners have it happen to them as well. Sony has said they can't "reproduce" the problem which sounds very similar to a car dealership jerking your chain with a warranty issue. Now I'm not saying they are jerking our chain or anything but anyone who edits extensively and has a discerning eye will pick up on it. Please Sony, take a closer look at this issue. There are too many people having this problem to be considered an isolated issue. Thanks.

Comments

filmy wrote on 8/19/2004, 12:19 PM

I agree with you about Sony looking harder at the issue - however it seems that almost every person who has this happen does something different when it happens. *That* makes it so hard to tie down. I know it is the same with the "gap" issue. It seemed at one point we were onto something when Sony asked for *exactly* what was done - I posted exactly what I did but than the thread just stopped.

From what I can tell these gaps and "flash" frame could be caused by one, or all, of the following:

Having ripple turned on.
Not having "Quantize to frames" turned on
Having "Quantize to Frames" turned on.

The flash frame could be because of the above plus Vegas's failure to flush some sort of cache/frame buffer.

To further add "logic" to it some people have reported deleting media and finding that there is a small, tiny, fraction of a frame still on the timeline somewhere. This hard to see left over turns itself into a full, single, frame when rendered. Because of: Quantize to frames or because of "resample" or both.

I really gave up hope somewhat of either of the issues ever being resolved because no one can ever seem to "make it happen". This is the *exact* same concept that auto repair/dealers use. My wife got a car last year - it was checked out and found to be fine. Problem is when she got in it and drove the RPM meter would stick and the speedomitor would get up to maybe 45 - 55 and than just drop down to 20 for no reason. But when it was taken back to the dealer they could not "make it happen", so therefore the problem did not exist. About 3 months after constantly having this problem the speedomitor just stoppped working - than when the car was taken in they tried to charge her to fix it because it was past the 3 month NY "lemon law" period. She said she had brought the car back with that issue withing the first week she had it, and again in the second month. They fixed it for no charge. The RPM meter still sticks, never happens when the dealer looks at however...sort of like the gaps and the phantom frames with Vegas.

GmElliott wrote on 8/19/2004, 1:11 PM

I have a strong feeling it has something to do with, as you said, "The flash frame could be because of the above plus Vegas's failure to flush some sort of cache/frame buffer."

As far as I'm concerned this is the WORST sort of "bug". I can deal with a tool acting a little buggy- but things that often times go unnoticed and directly affect final output is detrimental. I need Sony to get to the bottom of this as it's been a real pain for me and I'm sure many others. I don't know if Spot or Gary are as picky as me but I can't "live" with a finished output that includes even a single flash frame....especially on paid gigs!

Sony has been very receptive in the past- and I have confidence they will eventually solve this bug.

Jsnkc wrote on 8/19/2004, 1:19 PM

johnmeyer wrote on 8/19/2004, 1:23 PM

I posted this a few days ago. I also submitted it to Sony as a bug report. This definitely will lead to flash frames. I am reasonably certain that this is the cause of the problem. Read the whole thread to find a potential workaround that involves using the Edit Details view to delete zero length events.

Solution found!! to Zero Length Events (and maybe flash/blank frames)

johnmeyer wrote on 8/19/2004, 1:27 PM

I have yet to see a completely perfect video from any editor using Vegas or not, one without any droputs, flashes, tracking problems, little glitches. Every video has some problem in one way or another, it's just the nature of the beast.

I both agree and disagree with this.

I agree that video editing can be complicated and that it is difficult to make everything perfect. Log onto Internet Movie Database and look at the "goofs" listed for multi-million dollar Hollywood films.

I disagree, however, that we should be content with an editor that has interface quirks and outright bugs that cause glitches and mistakes. This is unacceptable, and any responsible software vendor should issue updates on a regular basis that fixes these problems as they are found. People are trying to make a living using these tools, and when these bugs make their work look shoddy, they understandably get upset. Certainly the problem reported in this thread makes the authors look bad, especially since the product in question is a tutorial on how to use Vegas. All this despite the fact that it was done by some of the most competent people out there.

JJKizak wrote on 8/19/2004, 2:24 PM

I view the final product many times before I commit to rendering. It's mainly because I am sloppy and I find many gaps, single frames, and overlaps. Watching the cuts without blinking your eyes is a trick especailly when your
tired. The single black frames are easy to catch once you train yourself to be one frame cognizant. I think part of the problem is in auto ripple when two clips get overlapped and one of them pancakes to one frame thickness. Its all very innocent. I've had some "deletes" that left a frame also. It does seem a bit "wegy boardy" like its haunted and you don't know when it will strike next.

JJK

farss wrote on 8/19/2004, 2:56 PM

I'm suspecting this all relates to a basic issue. Treating audio and video as though they are the same thing. One exists as frames and the other as samples and neither has any correlation to the other. If a cut is made at a frame boundary it's almost certain that cut didn't occur at a sample boundary but I doubt anyone would notice a missed sample on an audio track. But do it the other way around and there's going to be trouble, chances are very slim that any audio sample boundary will line up with a frame boundary no matter how hard you try.

What I see needing to happen is a fairly simple fix, if you have quantize to frame off then you cannot cut or trim video. This will only work though if the "S" tool is made a bit more intelligent. At the moment it just cuts everything, you need to be able to specify just what you're intending to cut, somthing like Premiere's razor tool.

Bob.

rmack350 wrote on 8/19/2004, 3:23 PM

Hi john,

Just read through the other thread and it all makes a lot of sense. A couple of other things I've noticed:

If you set your ruler to "samples" you may find that different things that ought to be of equal length aren't.

Audio streams in a source file are often not the same length as the video stream.

In an NTSC project, 1 second = a fractional number of frames. Or, conversely, 30 frames = 1.001 seconds. So in preferences you want to make sure the default for stills is set to some number that yields whole frames like 5.005 seconds instead of 5 seconds.

But maybe the real problem is that Vegas needs to always snap to the video stream in an AV pair.

Whatever needs to be done, it sure seems to be a problem.

Rob Mack

winrockpost wrote on 8/19/2004, 3:26 PM

We are all going to make mistakes. I need my software to help me catch the mistakes I will make, not spend time checking to see if my software has made a mistake.
I need to be confident the only screwups in my video ,are my own,, damn I dont need any help.

farss wrote on 8/19/2004, 3:50 PM

I'd agree, you cannot expect an app to find every mistake, spell thew rong word correctly and no spell checker will ever find it. But this issue is (I think) very much at the core of how Vegas works, it does let us do things that not many other (if any) NLEs will let you do but with power comes responsibility and I suspect it's the latter that needs more work done on it.

Bob.

db wrote on 8/19/2004, 10:58 PM

Vegas is not the only software to have this 1 frame out of place ...

other software that uses open GL recommend that on rendering you flush out the ram, turn open GL off( where it uses ghraphic card) .. plus turn ram preview to 0 to avoid errors in rendering as in a flash frame that doesn't belong there ....

in my rendering i have found that when i have had ram preview set to ZERO i have not seen the 1 frame out place ( as in it came from 4 min down the TL or 40 frame before )
i have had the 1 frame out of place when i have my preview ram set over 300 ...

GmElliott wrote on 8/20/2004, 6:40 AM

Not to sound ignorant but what does Open GL have to do with a program like Vegas. I thought Open GL was related to 3D apps and games.

You might have a point regarding the ram preview issue. I have mine set at 800megs...I like doing long ram previews sometimes. Anyway- how do I "flush" my ram before rendering- short of shutting down Vegas and reloading?

craftech wrote on 8/21/2004, 7:01 AM

This is one of the reasons that in protest I did not purchase VV5. I don't need as many bells and whistles as I do a competent Basic Editor. Flash frames, audio gaps (especially since I do musical productions), etc are completely unacceptable and will never be seriously addressed if you all keep buying new versions every time they come out. Not to mention a crude titler and amateurish credit roll. I'm sure any of you could add to this list as well as I can.

John