former premiere users

Comments

filmy wrote on 6/22/2003, 12:41 AM
BillyBoy I am confused...the review gives it a 'perfect' rating and says it is an excellent software program and you are saying you disagree with it? I am confused. I thought the part of the review I mentioned was right on the money, what part did you not agree with?
juan2003 wrote on 6/22/2003, 12:58 AM
My advice is one alone: USE VEGAS 4.0.
Premiere is: blah, blah and more blah! or in few words: Premiere is a technological shit!.

To think well before buying!, okay?

Lucky!!

Juan
bowman01 wrote on 6/22/2003, 1:42 AM
I'm am kind of an adobe vangelist but vegas is much more powerful and allows me to change stuff in front of clients and show them edited footage in real time. My other machine has premiere 6 and a pinnacle dv500. Very buggy setup if you ask me. I only use it to capture analog footage.

I've found that having been an acid pro user has allowed me to learn vegas really quick.

i've got a couple of samples of stuff i've done using vegas in the weeks that i've known how to use it- http://www.renderpro.com
filmy wrote on 6/22/2003, 7:39 AM
>>>>My other machine has premiere 6 and a pinnacle dv500. Very buggy setup if you ask me.<<<<

So lesson is just don't use Premiere with Pinnacle and lets not say Premiere sucks anymore if it really a hardware issue. ;)
BillyBoy wrote on 6/22/2003, 10:46 AM
No, no... I'm just saying I don't trust ANY review pro or con from any so-called reviewer in some magazine. My point is the reviewers are mostly clueless. I base that on years and years (going back to the 70's) of me buying tons of hardware and software and knowing hands-on what the "reviewer" is saying he's frequently missed a bunch of things anyone REALLY using the item has discoverted.


jrsunshine wrote on 6/22/2003, 12:52 PM
Ok... filmy.....

Since I have never had a requirement for EDL use or "online" editing.... and you seem to know what you are taling about...

Please explain these features and their pratical use in non-DV editing and DV editing.

I really think a lot of VV editors do strictly DV work and that is the crux of difference in the two camps.

Thanks,
Roy
filmy wrote on 6/22/2003, 8:51 PM
>>>Since I have never had a requirement for EDL use or "online" editing.... and you seem to know what you are taling about...

Please explain these features and their pratical use in non-DV editing and DV editing.<<<

Hmm...ok, I am going to try and not get too in depth, even if this is long, but basically:

You shoot film. And I mean anything shot on film. Now *if* your end result is going to be something that will have a release print made for any form of theatrical presentation than you will need a negative cut. The 'old way' was that you had a work print made and you edited the film that way. When complete one of the things that would happen is you would take that work print and give it to a negative cutter. They then matched edge numbers on the work print to edge numbers on the negative.

Now - on the video side it was more or less more common to use SMPTE time code to do an edit of something shot on video. For the question you asked this scenerio would be an offline session - editing a video 'workprint', if you will, and then dumping out an EDL (Edit Decision List). That EDL would than be brought to an online house where the masters would be edited to a master video format.

Along the way someone said "Hey lets take that camera film negative and find a way to put it on video so people can edit on video and not film." If you were only making a film to be shown on video or TV this wasn't such a bad deal because now you would have your negative transfered over to a video master and at the same time (or a dub later) have a 3/4 or Betacam dub with a window burn done. The same offline edit would be done and the same online edit would be done. The change was that the negative didn't need to be touched. And this was already being done anyway in TV land - it just wasn't too common for theatrical fims to be done this way because translating an SMPTE based EDL to film edge numbers didn't exist.

Along the way things like SMPTE TC slates and SMPTE TC nagras and MTV happened. Transfer houses and negative cutters also started to offer film/video services. Magic Film in Burbank was one of the first to offer "Video Dailies" and would sync up dailies that were shot with a SMPTE slate/SMPTE nagra. Through all of this the video/film market grew - an Australian company developed a way to take a CMX formated EDL and lock it into a VHS offline edited video *AND* the film negative. They called themselves "Match Cut". What they did, at the time, was really amazing. You would do the traditional film process but have your footage transfered to whatever video format you wanted with non-drop frame TC *and* the film edge numbers window burned. You would than have a VHS dub made for them. While you were off doing an 'offline' video edit they were logging all the negative. When you were done cutting a reel (Aproximatly 10 minutes for 35mm) you would bring them a VHS copy of your edit *and* a print out of the CMX formated EDL. They would take that EDL and run it through some DOS based program they wrote and pop out the edge numbers of the film and viola! Your cut negative.

At the same time this whole NLE thing was growing as well. But it was not in the homes like it is now. But the translations from the "pro" computer based systems to 'cheaper' systems was there. For the most part the cheaper systems still had the need to go online becase quality was still very much offline. Lots of cheaper cards bosted they had 'Vhs Quality', some bosted at the super high caputre level it was 'S-Vhs quality'. The better systems allowed for deck control so you could do an offline edit and than simply feed your EDL back and do an online edit from the same system. (I remember at one years Amiga Show in Burbank a company showing off a NLE that could bring in video and compress it and decompress it inb real time. They were using a laserdisk of, I believe, 'FireFox' and using that as source material and displaying it on a large video wall. People were in awe at the quality and that an Amiga 2000 could do something like this in real time) Prices dropped, computers got cheaper, camcorders also got better and really cheap and suddenly there was an entire new market being opened up for 'shot on video' films that were mainly being made for oversees and the mom and pop video stores in the US. Many were shot on betacam and offlined/onlined with 'cheaper' systems like D/Vision or brought out to a place that had a 'lower end' Avid suite. (Others were shot on Hi-8 or S-VHS and just edited offline, 'mastered' to Beta SP, and then had film look added.) Both systems by this time also had some form of edge number/match back/TC translation for those who also needed a negative cut.

Flash forward to now and here we are. DV = Digital Video and it has been around for a while with formats such as D-1 and Digi-Beta. So the practical use for an EDL with DV is still the same as it was. Especially if you are shooting film and doing your edit 'offline' and need that negative cut. To the best of my knowledge there isn't a film negative that transfers itself onto a hard drive and negative cuts itself and dumps off a bunch of release prints. However the 'made with a computer' and 'scanned onto negative film' process has indeed changed. So *in therory* you could shoot on a pure digital format, 'offline' edit on high end NLE and just scan that 'work print' to a negative, output any version you want for DVD, put out the TV version, the Candian version (old editor joke), and a PAL version from the same system. (And I am not even touching on the audio side of all of this)

I hope you sort of fill in the blanks along the way here because I am not really trying follow an exact timeline, just some highlights, in order to get to the 'why?' answer to the question you asked. I think you can get the idea of the important use of an EDL overall. As for the specific VV and Premiere issue - Premiere allows for EDL export in 'industry standard' formats. Premiere also allows for deck control, thusly you can take Premiere online if need be. So my thing as far as EDL goes is that *if* you do have a need for this than VV is not for you. Premiere is not the only option if you do need an EDL but the topic at hand was about Premiere, not another system. Also for specific Mini-DV use and timecode - the potential is there for some house to start offering Mini-DV video dailies. The option is also there to do an online with Mini-DV camera masters and direct output to another digital format for the final edited master. Currently VV does not have online capability for doing this, although if you want to call your Mini-DV captured footage your 'online' material you could...so simply outputting via firewire to a device of your choice *could* be considered VV doing online. And again I have to say a "but..." here because another use for an EDL is very very simple - going in for a re-edit months, or years, later. Instead of having to keep all material backed up on a hard drive you just pop in your EDL and let VV recapture from the orginals. Yes you can save a Premiere project and yes you can save a VV project - but both only refer back to the 'on disk' material. The EDL is what actually will call back the original tapes and edits *and* for project specific the material captured is saved with the batch capture list. (And that goes into another topic all together - lots of people here like to capture every frame of material shot instead of just 'printing circled takes') So hand in had you would do something such as - you want to replace a 10 second shot maybe 48 minutes into the film or else NBC won't air it. So yeah maybe you could re-capture everything and re-edited and than re-dump, or, with 'online' you could put the digital master going to NBC in the record deck and put the camera master with the alternate show in your source deck, hit "insert edit - video only' and *poof* - done. The EDL comes in handy here because you will have the 'shot list' with times and the Batch Capture List / Shot Log comes in handy because you have - well, the shot list and tape number and times.

Ok - so bottom line is that any NLE should be based on your needs. And I have said time and time again that VV is an awesome program but for me personally I also think Premiere 6.0/6.5 is an awesome program - but both serve a somewhat different use for me. And a lot of people always say they chose VV over another NLE because it is stable and easy to use, but speaking as an editor if I based my VV purchase on those facts alone I would be missing out on some, what I like to call, 'basic editing needs'.

Hope some of that was informative and answered your question.
BillyBoy wrote on 6/22/2003, 9:48 PM
Congradulations. You surpassed my record for longest reply I think. <wink>

Interesting, informaition about a EDL and why some may want such a feature, but I'm afraid we're back to comparing apples and oranges. Vegas doesn't claim to support such a feature so comparing it to one that does is like saying trat, I really, really like the new fill in the blank________________ as a car, but it can't haul my 40 foot boat so it isn't a good car ignoring the fact that 99% of the people interested in the car you also like have no desire to ever haul a 40 foot boat.

Vegas does most things extremely well. That doesn't mean I never use another application. I still open up VirtualDub once in awhile because it excells at pre processing and is great for removing video noise where Vegas could use lots of improvement.

Also, if I fully understand all you said about a EDL is it too would be useless unless one also kept every scrap of videofrom a project on the off change you'd need to change it at some unknown point in the future.

Everyone has ideas and us all being human think most over what would help US, ignoring the bigger picture which is what best makes Vegas a better application for everyone.
filmy wrote on 6/22/2003, 10:58 PM
Hey Billy Boy - you mean I beat a record held by you? Weeee...pork chops and applesauce for everyone. :)

Actually this thread has gotten so long I think the EDL thing maybe should have been it's own thread. You are very correct - VV did not ever claim to support overall EDL's (Only that it exports a Vegas formated EDL) or the ability to go 'online' but the issue was raised by me to flipper, who is currently using Premiere, as "if you need EDL support..." So it was not so much a comparison, just a "if you need EDL support stay with Premiere for now because VV does not have it." reply.

As for the EDL and keeping everything - ok, maybe that part was not as clear as I hoped. My thought is that you would keep the original elements - film negative, camera masters, orginal negative daily transfer, etc. The EDL is used to conform the 'offline' edit to the final 'online' master edit. The idea is that you could take that EDL and 5 years later, along with your orginal source material, make a new edited master *or* do some re-edits if need be. Obviously if you are talking camera negative - once the negative is cut that is pretty much it for those portions that were used, unless you made inter negs of that material. Now in both cases the shot logs come into use as well - and maybe this is the confusing part. For film the negative cutter logs each shot and breaks down the negative based on the takes/slates. In video the same thing is done - but with tape numbers and time code. So years later, provided you kept the 'camera original', you can use the logs to go back and find the shots you may be looking for. So for film - maybe the neg cutters list shows Reel 2, Dialog 2 (or...ya with me...R2D2 for short) and the edge numbers for the shot in question and for video the EDL shows that 'shot 98' at 8 minute 52 seconds had an in point of 05:27:32;01 that would translate to tape 5, 27 minutes, 32 seconds, 1 frame into it. So EDL option wise you could simply pop in tape 5, cue it up to that in point and look at it *or* you can pull out the tape log for tape 5 and see if there is an alternative shot logged and if so *than* just type in that TC and go to that take to review it. If it works you just do what I described before in my single shot replacement concept - enter the in and out points on the, hopefully, distribution sub-master, and enter the in and out points for the shot on tape 5. *poof* all done. Obviously for a full re-edit you are talking more work...and also I was really only talking about the picture portion of a project...audio is another story as are effects and color correction and nowdays things like DVDs - commentarys, directors cuts, alternate endings and so on and so on. A lot ot times you don't *need* access to all the material anyway - only the locked final picture. The time code portion however would still be relevant for whoever is scoring the music, doing the ADR, the foley, cutting the effects, doing the color correction and the final mix...it really is a long never ending cycle overall. :)

I agree with the 'big picture' concept but if people on this forum and elsewhere, reviews included, want to think of VV as a 'professional' NLE or ask "why isn't VV considered a professional NLE?" than EDL support has to be one of the top issues addressed. I mean think of it in these terms - we have 5:1 support, we have 24p support, we have basic HD support. If VV is really aimed just at people doing wedding videos, short industrial films and family home movie archiving why include that kind of support? I know - indy film. DIY support is one thing VV does have that is for sure but there is a huge difference between having the tools to DIY and going out and making the next Matrix film. Yes - that really *is* apples and oranges! I happen to like both. :)
flipper wrote on 6/22/2003, 11:00 PM
ok, i have read through all these posts. i admire the respect everyone has for each others opinions. i see here people who feel vv is the best, others not so. i have dabbled thru vv for the past couple days. does the manual that comes with the demo explain how to use the program, or does it just scratch the surface. and...if it does just scratch the surface, are there any good books our there that will really help me get a good handle on this program. i use ulead cool 3d, and do know that i cannot bring in sequence files the way i can in premiere. but, that alone is would not stop me from using vv. so, can the manual help, or do i need something beyond that. thanks for all your imput and help
BrianStanding wrote on 6/23/2003, 11:26 AM
Used Premiere 5.1c & Premiere 6.01 both for a long time with a Canopus DVRaptor, and was actually quite happy with it. There were just a few Vegas features that really made me switch:

1. Superior audio tools, including flawless DirectX support (Premiere's DirectX support is pretty rudimentary). I got very tired of exporting audio tracks into Sound Forge and re-importing them to Premiere just to tweak audio or apply Noise Reduction.

2. RT effects previews to an NTSC monitor. I could have gotten this with Premiere, but I would have had to upgrade my hardware to, say, a Canopus Raptor RT. Given the rapidly changing hardware landscape, a software-only solution seemed much more sensible.

3. The ability to handle multiple formats on the same timeline. Premiere is very picky about having everything on the timeline in the same video compression and audio bit depth. Vegas will autmatically resample audio and can handle multiple compression schemes without flinching

4. Other niceties: transitions on any track, automatic crossfades, excellent color correction tools.

I resisted switching until Vegas 4 came out because color correction and media bins are essential to the way I work.

Some things I miss:
1. Subclips: Premiere would let you set an in and out point in the Source monitor and drag it back to a bin to create an automatic subclip that you could then manipulate as a normal clip. Vegas comes close to this with Regions, but the inter-relationship of Regions with the Trimmer, the Media Pool, the Explorer window and the Media Bin structure needs a lot of work.

2. Re-synch of video and audio clips: There have been some creative script writing to work around Vegas' lack of this feature, but none as elegant as those little arrows in Premiere that automatically re-synch paired audio and video clips when you inadvertently slide them out of synch.

3. 3-point editing: Vegas can do this, but you must set both an in point and an out point in the Trimmer. Vegas also does not deliver edits to targeted tracks when using keyboard shortcuts. You cannot, for example, set just an out point in the trimmer, an in and out point in the timeline, and do a clean insert edit to targeted tracks, like you can in Premiere.

4. Savable workspaces: Premiere 6.0 does a nice job of remembering where all your windows are, and works well with my dual-monitor setup. Vegas always recenters all floating windows on the main screen every time I start the program, and I then have to move them back to where I want them.
SonyEPM wrote on 6/23/2003, 12:37 PM
Attention Filmy, a set of questions just for you:

1) Have you tried generating a CMX3600 EDL in Vegas 4 using the "exportedl.js" script?

2) Have you tried opening that Vegas-generated EDL in AVID's Media Manager and from there have you created a sequence in any AVID product (from DVX to DS)?

The reason I ask is just about every post you make says Vegas doesn't generate edls. I have personally tested this script extensively and thoroughly and a Vegas cutlist opens without error in AVID's media manager (meaning, the edl is good- if it opens correctly in AVID, it is good). Please try this process if indeed EDL generation for other finishing systems is critical to your workflow- I think you'll see it works very well.




filmy wrote on 6/23/2003, 1:27 PM
>>> Attention Filmy, a set of questions just for you:

1) Have you tried generating a CMX3600 EDL in Vegas 4 using the "exportedl.js" script?

2) Have you tried opening that Vegas-generated EDL in AVID's Media Manager and from there have you created a sequence in any AVID product (from DVX to DS)?

The reason I ask is just about every post you make says Vegas doesn't generate edls. I have personally tested this script extensively and thoroughly and a Vegas cutlist opens without error in AVID's media manager (meaning, the edl is good- if it opens correctly in AVID, it is good). Please try this process if indeed EDL generation for other finishing systems is critical to your workflow- I think you'll see it works very well.<<<

Well - hmm now. This is a bit weird coming from you SonicEPM because in the past you have said, and this is a cut and paste quote from you, " Just so everyone is clear about edls and Vegas: Vegas 4 has minimal project interchange support. We have never claimed otherwise. If on a regular basis you need to generate a rough cut for finishing in another app, or the reverse (import a rough cut from some other app), Vegas 4 is probably not the right tool for you."

Now having said that - I have tried to import CMX EDL's into VV with not much luck. But based on what you have also said - and this is another quote from you, "If you export a Premiere cuts-only project as a CMX 3600 edl, and save that to a single folder where (importantly) all the media is located, it should load in Vegas with events in the right places on the timeline. Vary from this set of requirments and it probably won't work." So I am, again, going to stand by what I say, and that even you have said, that VV does not support EDL's very well. And if it will only work with CMX 3600 and only *if* the media is in same folder how does that matter if you need to do an online session from the orginal tapes? if there is some hidden feature that allows VV to recapture (again - in other threads you or Dennis have pointed out that VV does not allow for recapture - online/offline type) let me know. Seriously, this would be awesome.


As for export I have not tried the 'exportedl.js' script mainly because in the other threads I haven't heard you mention it...or anyone for that matter. Doing it this way than I would guess you can run LTC/VITC TC via an AEC box to LPT 1 or 2 and VV will capture it along with the picture and generate an online EDL? If so..awesome! I can do offline edits.

As for Avid - well - it is Avid and I have never used it to any extent for many reasons. Tried Avid Xpress for DV and other than the real time output of effects via firewire I don't much like it at all. I will email an VV EDL to someone who can test it on an AVID and see if they can use their source tapes. Again though - if the EDL that VV generates only references the hard drive how does that work for doing an online session? Just looking at the VV EDL I see hard drive location of the file but I do not see a tape number/smpte source in/out and smpte source record in/out - the closest would be "Stream";"StreamStart";"StreamLength"

Just tell me if I way off base here and misundertood your earlier comments about lack of EDL support and how VV reads TC info.

P.S - is this the script you mean, by SonicPJM - http://sonicfoundry.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=161934&Page=0 ? I ask because it says -

"Limitations:
* - supports only 1 video and 1 audio track.
* - supports cuts and cross fades (dissolves) only.
* - assumes all audio is stereo."

But if it actually converts VV time into original Source tape time and allows for online edits that it would work for simple basic projects. I have downloaded and will try it.
jrsunshine wrote on 6/23/2003, 2:40 PM
Thanks for the informative post. I felt stupid asking, but I now completely understand the need for EDL or whatever the industry is using. If Vegas cannot meet those needs I understand why you choose Premiere. I currently do DV only work and of that work I rarely need to move finals to broadcast. I am sure I will fully feel the pinch of the 'offline' and 'online' concept when I need to make that dreaded change that you spoke of earlier.

Thanks again,
Roy
Grazie wrote on 6/23/2003, 3:03 PM
I have really enjoyed this thread. The depth and breadth of such experiences has been most educational.

Truly, thank you all,

Grazie
filmy wrote on 6/23/2003, 3:44 PM
Ok So I tried the edl export that SonicEPM mentioned -

1> As I had thought it might - the edl does not referance any source media - all cuts come up as 'unknown' where the tape number should be.

2> As a test I re-imported back into VV. Per what SonicEPM has said in another thread the files were not present because all media needs to be *in the same folder* as the EDL. And as VV does not seem to do online it didn't ask to insert "tape 1" or what have you. (But because the script did not export any tape numbers that is a null point)

3> Waiting on Avid results however as no source tape information is contained in the EDL there would be no way to do an online session anyway.

So SonicEPM please explain how you tested and were able to retain/export TC info, source info and bring into an Avid for an online session. I do want to know.