Framing problem when shooting 16:9

meakinsl wrote on 10/29/2007, 4:47 AM
Hello,

I am quite new to filmmaking and I am attempting to make
a small documentary film that was hoping to sell on DVD.
I have read the forums and now a bit confused about a
particular problem I had yesterday when importing the
footage that has made me question whether I have made
the right basic decisions/assumptions and the problem
is affecting a lot the footage I shot over the summer.

I am attempting this on a very small budget - I have
purchased a Sony DCR-HC47 Handycam Mini Dv Camcorder and
using a Zoom H4 Compact SD Recorder for sound.

I have been shooting in 16:9 mode on the camcorder and my
reasoning was I would then keep it at 16:9 PAL throughout.
My reasoning was that a lot of people now have widescreen tv's
and would be able to watch the DVD in 16:9 and those that have
4:3 could letterbox it on their TV.

Yesterday I started to import the footage into Vegas for the
first time and then rendered it as Mpeg 2 16:9 PAL for DVD
Architect (using the Vegas template) and the sound as PCM 48khz
16 bit. Then used DVD Architect to burn a simple menu
DVD. All went well so far and was amzed how easy it all was.

Having proved that could import and burn I started to import some
more footage and started to notice that on the left and right hand
side of the footage there was unwanted items that I am sure I
wouldn't have filmed. I then proved this by setting the camcorder
up in the room and sure enough on the lcd view finder of the
camcorder all looked fine but when importing the footage there
was a bit extra on the edges.

When playing back the footage on the TV in 16:9 mode the unwanted stuff on the left and right wasn't displayed but when switching the TV to 4:3 mode it was.

Not sure what I have done wrong - find it strange that the
viewfinder on the camcorder doesn't show the extra stuff and is
a nightmare for me as a lot of my footage has stuff on the edges
that don't really want.

What have I done wrong ? Should I shoot in 4:3 and then stretch
to widescreen or when shooting 16:9 zoom in a bit ? Really
dissappointed that in 16:9 mode on the viewfinder don't see all
of the image.

Been reading on the web about the differences between 4:3 and 16:9 but still don't see why the camcorder would behave in that way
when shooting 16:9.

The filming I am doing is on a boat and have been framing the
shots in the viewfinder so that don't get unwanted bits of the
boat in shot (especially as quite often they are white and appear
very bright against the rest of the frame which is metered
correctly). When viewed in 4:3 mode on a tv they appear which
looks unprofessional.

Sorry if this question has been asked before but any help and
advice much appreciated.

Lawrence

Comments

Chienworks wrote on 10/29/2007, 5:10 AM
You're not doing anything wrong. Most consumer grade and semi-professional gear records a bit more than you see in the viewfinder. This is generally because part of the outside of image will often get cut off by most televisions. The camcorder manufacturer is trying to help you by showing you in the viewfinder what might be shown on the TV. The problem is that the amount that is cut off varies from TV to TV, and in a lot of the newer widescreen TVs there isn't anything missing at all.

You can correct this in Vegas by zooming in slightly with Pan/Crop to crop out the stuff on the edges that you don't want. This will make the image slightly softer but it may be worth it if the stuff is very objectionable. Another option is to add a black mask around the edges to hide them without zooming in. This will retain the quality of the image, but leave you with some black space around the edges.

Next time you work on a project like this it might be helpful to look a some of your shots right away on the same day you shoot them so that you can be aware of these kinds of problems while you still have a chance to go back and adjust and reshoot. Might also be handy to have a laptop with you so you can do some captures on location or even monitor the full frame view on the laptop while you are shooting.
meakinsl wrote on 10/29/2007, 10:46 AM

Thankyou for your quick reply. It is the behaviour I am seeing but still
find it very surprising that what I see in the lcd display when shooting
16:9 is not what is recorded on the tape. Suppose when viewed on a
widescreen TV in 16:9 it is what is recorded but when swap it to 4:3 on
the TV the extra bit appears on the left and right. I would far prefer
the bahaviour where the 16:9 display shows exactly what is being recorded
and when viewed in 4:3 it chops a bit off.

Knew I was taking a risk doing a lot of the shooting before the editing
but never noticed the problem until a specific bit off footage highlighted
the problem and then started to notice it elsewhere.

As it happens I don't have enough footage for the documentary now started
to view it back so will shoot some more next summer and re-shoot some of the
footage that has the problem but there are a couple of bits would like to
use. When you say "This will make the image slightly softer" when panning
cropping - does that mean there will be a slight loss of quality as guess it
is doing the equivalent of a slight digital zoom ? Slightly torn as the
extra bits only show up in 4:3.

A lot of shooting is taking place on a small boat so the laptop monitor
route can only be done at the end of the trips. Have been viewing the footage
after each day on the lcd display but where this was in 16:9 mode it doesn't
show the problem up - guess there might be a way of playing it back in 4:3
mode on the lcd display.

Due to the nature of the small boat action the only way I can think of
getting round this problem is to always zoom in a fraction more than I would
want to - is this what people normally do ? Would a better camera help out
here ? Due to the nature of the shoot need to use a small handheld camera
for a lot of it but some of the shooting will be done on shore so a
better/bigger camera could be used then.

Many thanks

Lawrence
Chienworks wrote on 10/29/2007, 12:26 PM
Yes, the softness would be because you're basically doing a digital zoom when cropping. That's why alternatively i suggested masking instead of cropping as then there would be no zoom.

Pro cameras generally show you the entire image in the viewfinder. These also tend to be magnitudes more expensive.

Probably your best bet is to do what you suggest and zoom in slightly more after framing the shot.
farss wrote on 10/29/2007, 2:44 PM
Certainly a camera such as the V1 would help. It has "Allscan" which lets you see all of the frame plus shooting HDV for SD delivery you can zoom in in post without loosing resolution. That is a significantly more expensive camera though.

Even then though it's general best to modify your shooting style. If there's something you don't want in the shot it should be well out of the shot. If there's something you want entirely in the shot then it should be well inside the shot. In other words you should have a safety margin. Not just because of technical reasons but because things move and so do cameras and it's pretty hard to keep watching the edges of the frame when shooting.

Bob.