Full(Home) HD Video Package [HD video capture to final projection question]

VMP wrote on 7/16/2004, 5:55 AM
Hi,

This is my equipment at this moment.

(Minimum equipment for [A] capturing-[B,C] editing- to [D] projecting the video)


[A] Camera: Sony DCR VX 2000.
[B] Computer: Pentium 4 based system. Speed = 2.0ghz, Memory = 1024 DDR.
[C] Video editing software: Vegas video 5.

[D] Video projector Philips c-Smart:
[Projector specs: Lamp: Type:
120W UHP
Life: 6000 hours
Display: Type:
0.9" PolySi LCD (3)
Native: 800x600 Pixels
Maximum: 1280x1024 Pixels
Aspect Ratio: 4:3 (SVGA)]


Here is the fact:
With the equipment that I have now (Except Vegas 5)
I can’t exceed the quality/resolution above (720x576; 25,000 fps)
Mainly (1) because of my camera (PAL DV 720x576; 25,000 fps),
(2) My PC I think that it can't handle above PAL DV 720x576 res.
And my projector Native: 800x600 Pixels.

So say that I show one of my movies made with the standard (PAL DV 720x576; 25,000 fps) on a big screen commercial theater with my Video projector
(which I have done), then it is clear that it can't compete at all to the resolution of the commercial films today.

So to get the same or almost the same quality to the commercial films, is to or do the whole project in "Film" or in "HD Video". from capturing editing to projecting.


This is my question.

Say that I could afford any "Consumer/home equipment".
And I would like to make all my projects from now onwarts in the standard "HD 1080-60i (1920x1080; 29,970 fps) ".
(I guess that this is the best HD Resolution and quality because it dosent go further than that in the VV5 preset, and I dont want to use any other software than VV5)

Then which equipment should I have to buy to make the same projects that I make now, but in HD 1080-60i (1920x1080; 29,970 fps)?

So I mean ofcourse from capturing to editing to projecting the HD Video (The whole package) (For home use)

[A] Capturing [.... HD..Camera.........(1920x1080)]

[B] Editing [....HD..Supported PC...(1920x1080)]

[C] Software [Ofcourse VEGAS 5!! dont want to change that!]

[D] Projector [....HD Projector capable of projecting (1920x1080; 29,970 fps).......]

(Also the projector because the cinema where I have gone to had only a Film projector
and not a HD (1920x1080; 29,970 fps) video projector )

Extra questions:

(2) Aspect ratio question:

Untill now al the VV5 preset shows "standard 16:9 aspect ratio"
and not the commercial "Anamorphic widescreen"(like for example lord of the rings aspect ratio)
Is the solution to this, cropping the captured video in Vegas? Or other lenses on the HD Camera?
Or is there going to be some new preset that compresses the 16:9 to "Anamorphic like the 4:3 - to 16:9 on the standard DV cameras?

(3) HD video + 5.1 Channel audio question:

Say that I got everything to make my projects in HD (1920x1080; 29,970 fps), from capturing to projecting.
The next step would be to install the projector in the big theater and play the HD video from the HD Camera to the HD Projector.
But for the audio this still would mean "PCM Stereo 2.0 channels.
How to solve this problem?
For this I can think of 2 'maybe possible solutions'.
A: A Windows media video Standalone/set-top player (hardware) that playes encoded WMV (1920x1080; 29,970 fps) video and 5.1 channel audio.
B: Or that the HD Camera manufacturers make (like the commercial films) a seperate 5.1 audio channel track on the DV tapes.
So that I can play the (1920x1080; 29,970 fps) video and 5.1 channel audio from the HD Camera it self.
(Maybe the solution to this is the SONY DCR VX3000 HD Camera with 5.channel audio? ; -) )


(Misc info)
Here are links from 2 HD Cameras but I dont think they support (1920x1080; 29,970 fps).
And totally not 5.1 channel audio ;-))

JVC = http://pro.jvc.com/prof/Attributes/features.jsp?model_id=MDL101394
Panasonic = http://www.1-877camcorder.com/grhd1.html

I would really appreciate
if you guys could put a
(Home consumer HD package together (from capturing to projecting (1920x1080; 29,970 fps) )

And maybe a possible (existing) solution to playing (1920x1080; 29,970 fps) video with 5.1 channel audio.
------------------------------------------
I got the 5.1 channel audio problem also with my PAL DV projects(playing movies from the DV camera in its best resolution), it is also PCM Stereo.
And projecting a DVD with 5.1 channel audio means less quality for video.

Thanks,

V_Gts.

Comments

farss wrote on 7/16/2004, 6:52 AM
Lots of questions!
[1A] If you want it to come close to 35mm, CineAlta camera
[1B] As afr as I know no standard PV system could cope at that resolution
[1C] Not certain, certainly need something WAY more expensive than Vgeas
[1D] Sony recently releases a projector capable of competing with film, over $100K though, need several strong men to lift it.
(2) Video at 16:9 is not a film standard, hence even on 16:9 TVs some letterboxing is required.
(3) You should be able to feed a 5.1 Dolby signal into the theatres systems, cameras don't support that though and at the resolution you want to work at you're looking at a HD playbeack system

In summary, its arguable if any digital system at any price is as good as 35mm and I'm talking systems costing millions!
It's not just a matter of raw pixels of resolution, DV and HDV have less color depth per pixel than systems designed to compete with film. On top of that the lenses are vastly superior.
But most impotantly and what's so easily overlooked is what happens in front of the lens. Next time you're in the cinema try playing back a good movie off a DVD. Now OK it'll still not look as good as it did off film BUT with a half decent DV camera and a lot of skill you can come damn close. The resolution of a DVD is still 720x480! If you cannot make that happen then buying expensive gear isn't the answer.
One of the reasons film looks so good is because it costs so much you end up putting more effort into all the other parts that make up the production. The sound is done better, the lighting is done better, the story is written better (well maybe!).
VMP wrote on 7/16/2004, 7:31 AM
Aha wow thanks for the super reply! ;-)) (farss).
Still I got 1 question, ok I dont have millions (yet), and I am going to go on with my equipment what I got now.
At this moment I project my movies using the "Sony DV camera"
Because I heard that it has better video quality when projecting with my "Philips-C smart" than with DVD, because of the Mpeg2-compression.

But on the other hand when I project the movies through the DVD I get 5.1 Audio, and not when I playback with the camera.

So choice 1: playback through DV camera = good video quality 2.0 channel audio.

or
Choice 2: playback through DVD = less quality(sharpness) and 5.1 audio.


Do you know maybe a system that can store the video quality of DV,
and also store 5.1 audio( in a seperate track or something)?
So that I have good picture and 5.1 audio when projecting my movies as big as possible in a big hall.

( Of course I could do something crazy like, connect the DVD player with 5.1 audio onto a 5.1 reciever, and the DV camera to the projector. and play them at the same time hoping that it they will play synchronised but that's crazy ;-))

Thanks,
Vighnesh
B_JM wrote on 7/16/2004, 7:36 AM
i don't know where to start here ....

lets tackle the video projection ..

you are not even remotely close to film quality or even 16mm in terms of both resolution and brightness ...

smpte standards for theaters dictates a min. of 12lm sq. ft , which means you would need a 9000lm projector for a 40ft screen .. as you are not using the full panel with a 4:3 lcd but playing wide screen (you lose a lot of brightness) ... there are now wide screen projectors though ..

since we install these systems - a lot ... i can tell you it isn't real cheap ..
though there ways to save here and there ...

lcd looks like crap blown up with a video source -- end of that topic ..

sony has a new type of projection which looks pretty good , DLP right now is still king (there is also D-ILA from JVC) for large format ...

figure on $25,000 - $100,000 for a 40' screen for projector cost ..

video projectors don't play interlaced , so 29.976i is pointless, 30fps progressive is good (29.98P) ... the 'standard' is 24fps progressive but 30 does look a lot smoother ..

commercial 35mm film is sort of equal to 2k video projection (really its 4k it is closer to but there is no 4k projectors yet mass marketed) .. you prob. don't want to go to that expense and people are very happy with 1280 x1024 . video projection for the most part .. the better DLP's are 1440x1050 3 chip which have better contrast and picture quality..

for highest resolution and a very good value -- the new sonys are worth looking at .. so are the ivision series by DPI or the top of the line marantz ..

these all can be had for under 25,000 and are in the 3000-5000lm range and would be good for up to a 16- 20 foot screen ....




for anamorphic work in vegas - you just squeeze the image to a 4:3 ratio and set the mpeg flags to 16:9 (HD is 1:1 PAR otherwise) to blow it back out but read on ..

but you don't need to do this with a wide format vid projector and if you use a 4:3 ratio vid projector you need to use an anamorphic adapter lens on the projector which will run $1995 - $5000 dependent on the projector/prime lens you use .. the lens for better video projectors themselves (for large format projectors) can run up to $6000-7000 easy .. many are in the $1000-$2000 range also for mid format projectors ..

the projectors i listed above (lower range mid format) all come with lens usually in the 1.2-2.25 zoom range ...

how are going to play back HD ?

your choices are:

D-VHS HD (not sure of price but i think pretty cheap) (biggest downside is that tape is not a good media for industrial use) and these machines are not known for reliability ..

dedicated MPEG2 HD server ($15,000) (like the alcorn mcbride)

QuVis server (many types we use but start in the 23,000$ range and go up quickly from there) ..

HD - DVD (blu-ray) (i buy these for $3000-5000 from japan and work pretty good for playing around .. control for a industrial application is not there yet - not industrial quality either (for day in and day out duty) ..

dedicated computer --- works , can be built really well including embedded OS and can play back HD with the right hardware/software ...
we use them in some applications for 3d playback with custom software / hardware (and we use the quvis servers for 2d and 3d also - which are more rugged and better reliability overall) (we also use some alcorn mcbrides) ) .. figure on $5000 for a bang up system constructed to my specs for 2d ... control -- there is remote control to run pc's via rs232 and 422 .. you may not need this and just use a mouse ..


audio --

for audio you can encode to 5.1 ac3 and output this via ALL the playback options i listed above (except the d-vhs maybe - i really don't know) ..

you input this digital stream into the house (theater) Dolby cat.. processor IF it has the correct input card for dvd type ac3 (which is completely different than theater Dolby digital) , many do have this card and if not it can be added to most house systems (if it has a Dolby processor) .. if not you will need to use an outboard decoder to analog and either mix the analog into the house or in most cases - either the Dolby processor or if there is a dts decoder/playback or ultra stereo can accept 6 channel analog .

you can also use DTS either on board or normal DTS cd external (sending a smpte time code to the unit for frame lock (we do it this way most of the time) from the playback .. this option is going to cost more but is better quality sound (you can also output 8 or even more channels of audio form a quvis server locked to video)

i will give you some more info later after you post the questions I'm sure you will have ...

VMP wrote on 7/16/2004, 7:42 AM
Aha wow thank you too (B_JM) for the super reply! ;-))
Still I got 1 question, ok I dont have millions (yet), and I am going to go on with my equipment what I got now.
At this moment I project my movies using the "Sony DV camera"
Because I heard that it has better video quality when projecting with my "Philips-C smart" than with DVD, because of the Mpeg2-compression.

But on the other hand when I project the movies through the DVD I get 5.1 Audio, and not when I playback with the camera.

So choice 1: playback through DV camera = good video quality 2.0 channel audio.

or
Choice 2: playback through DVD = less quality(sharpness) and 5.1 audio.


Do you know maybe a system that can store the video quality of DV,
and also store 5.1 audio( in a seperate track or something)?
So that I have good picture and 5.1 audio when projecting my movies as big as possible in a big hall.

( Of course I could do something crazy like, connect the DVD player with 5.1 audio onto a 5.1 reciever, and the DV camera to the projector. and play them at the same time hoping that it they will play synchronised but that's crazy ;-))

Thanks,
Vighnesh
flashlight wrote on 7/16/2004, 7:46 AM
Here is the closest you can get with a consumer budget

Camera - JVC HD-10. Currently there are no consumer HD cameras that can shoot 1920x1080. The jvc is 1280x720. Sony has shown a prototype of a 1080 camcorder but have yet to release it.

Edit with Vegas and purchase the Cineform ConnectHD codec - www.cineform.com

You can use any projector with a native resolution of 1280x720. Minimum is around $2500 on up to ......alot.

www.dvinfo.net has good information on this all in the HDV forums.
farss wrote on 7/16/2004, 7:56 AM
If you shoot your video right to start with then the mpeg compression shouldn't be too much of an issue. Depending on how long your movie is there are DVD players that'll cope with upto 19 Mbits/sec and as you say you get 5.1 sound.
What you do need to do is get the best possible feed from the player into the projector, composite video or DVI is the only way to go.
I've done exactly what you're doing both from DV shot in cheap camera and DV downcoverted from DigiBetacam. You can get it to look OK.
If you want to get your video looking good on the big screen the you need a good camera. If you are serious about making it look like film then the DVX100A with all the bolt on goodies shooting 16:9 at 24pA is a start without a serious visit to the bank manager. Just so Grazie doesn't jump up and down you could also look at the new Cannon XL2, just don't know if you can fit follow focus gear to it. If cinema projection is ALL you're interested in you could consider going to PAL to pickup a bit more resolution. Just remember your gear will only be of use for cinema projection.

And I say again, get the sound perfect, much of what you hear in the cinema today comes out of Vegas, so you've got the tools there and the eyes are far more forgiving than the ears.

Spend a lot of time looking at how film is shot, that's way more important than the gear you use.
B_JM wrote on 7/16/2004, 7:58 AM
play it back off a computer ...

in fact -- you CAN combine ac3 5.1 and a DV stream and play this off a laptop or a PC

VMP wrote on 7/16/2004, 8:07 AM
Thank you all,

Vighnesh.
VMP wrote on 7/16/2004, 8:31 AM
Ofcourse I could also rent the (professional) equipment then it would be more afordable. I am really considering stepping from my PAL DV (720x576 standard) to high defintion. ( even if it is HD 720-24p (1280x720; 23,976 fps) )
I am going to look around on the web to put a package together.

Then I am sure that you guys will know if it are good combinations.

Thanks all for the very good answers.
I will try to sink al those info's into my head and make some decisions.

Vighnesh