Ghosted Images on DVD but nowhere else

Richard Jones wrote on 2/16/2014, 3:30 AM
I've just completed a half hour project. All was well when I played it back on the PC and external monitor from the Vegas Timeline and all was well again when I rendered it out to MPEG2/AC3 (PAL in 4:3), transferred it to DVDA and played it again from Architect's Timeline. You can therefore imagine my surprise when I burnt a DVD from DVDA and played this back through a TV only to find that, in a number of random places, an earlier event( not the same one) was to be seen showing through the current one!

It was almost as though I had superimposed the events but there was no evidence of this to be seen in either the Vegas Pro or the DVDA project. I thought is might be a faulty disc but this same problem appeared when I went back to the project in Vegas and rendered out a small region which I then took through DVDA to record to another DVD.

The effect shows whether the DVD is played back to a TV or the PC! And a later project had been transferred to a DVD following the same procedure with no problems apparent

I just can't fathom out what has happened or what needs to be done too put it right. Any ideas or suggestions will be welcomed by this frustrated old man.

Richard

Comments

Grazie wrote on 2/16/2014, 5:12 AM
Burn directly from TL to DVD the section you KNOW to be ghosting.

Play that.

Oh yeah, you are using RWs yes?

Grazie

Richard Jones wrote on 2/16/2014, 5:25 AM
Thanks Grazie. I'll try that and come back to you.. By the way, I'm using Sony DVD-R discs and have done for years as they've always been reliable

Richard.

paul_w wrote on 2/16/2014, 6:57 AM
Not a definite answer here, but if its ghosting with artifacts almost like a 70's TV special effect, and if this occurs after a scene change from one to the next, then could be that key frame information is being disrupted or lost. Seen this before here too.

Thoughts include checking DVDA for keyframe settings (try a higher rate) and also whether DVDA re-encoded the file to a different bitrate which may also mess with the keyframe information during playback. Either way, it looks like a DVDA problem.

PS, a few years ago i had conversations with various people in the industry and it was of the consensus that DVD- (minus) disks were not to be used for video. More for data like DVD roms. Had problems trying to playback DVD- on some players, so stuck with DVD+ disks and that seemed to clear the problem. These days however things may changed and i supposed players should play both formats. I never use DVD- for anything anymore, its all + disks.

Paul.
Richard Jones wrote on 2/16/2014, 9:26 AM
Paul

Many thanks for that. I'll try to follow these ideas through.

Incidentally, I think what you say about the + or - Discs used to be true and that they would each only play on some DVD players but I believe this has long since been dealt with and that modern (?5 years or younger) players no longer discriminate in this way, being able to play both types without a problem.

Grazie

I've tried three things which I think might help to narrow it down within your line of thought.

1. I tried a re-render of part of the project and transferred this into DVDA to burn the disc but this showed exactly the same ghosting effects.

2. I did as you suggested and burned the disc from within Vegas but again the same problem showed through.

3. I copied and pasted a selection from the original timeline into a new project, rendered it and transferred this to DVDA which then burnt the disc with nothing like this ghosting in sight.

So, it seems that this might be some problem within the render of the project although I'm still baffled as to why this didn't show when playing from the DVDA timeline and only revealed itself once the disc was burned.

It also means that I've probably found an answer which will allow me to successfully finish this particular project. Despite this, I'd still like to know what happened so that I (and perhaps others) can avoid the problem in future so further thoughts will be very welcome.

Richard
fldave wrote on 2/16/2014, 10:12 AM
Maybe your field order is off. Assuming it is an interlaced DVD, try switching the field order on the output render settings and see if that fixes it.
Grazie wrote on 2/16/2014, 11:04 AM
Works in one and not int other. Good point: Check field order.

G

Richard Jones wrote on 2/16/2014, 12:03 PM
Many thanks guys but I've already tried that!

Richard
Grazie wrote on 2/16/2014, 12:26 PM
Wow....,

g

farss wrote on 2/16/2014, 1:00 PM
The problem is in the Vegas project, most likely a track opacity slider or event envelope not at 100%.
The reason why it only becomes visible when burnt to a DVD is because of how the video levels are handled.

Bob.
johnmeyer wrote on 2/16/2014, 4:35 PM
The problem most certainly has nothing to do with DVD Architect. It also definitely has nothing to do with media. Neither has the ability to cause media to randomly appear.

If you can upload the VEG file, it should be pretty easy to spot the problem. I don't have Vegas 12, but if you are using any other version of Vegas, I'd be happy to look at it. Bob (farss) suggested one possibility, but there are several others, such as small gaps between events that you don't see until you zoom way in.

Are you previewing using the "Best" setting? There are quite a few situations in which lesser preview settings, such as "Good" won't display certain problems. If your problems are very brief (one frame), then the display setting can very definitely mask the problem when you do preview in Vegas.

Grazie wrote on 2/17/2014, 12:05 AM
"Grazie I've tried three things which I think might help to narrow it down within your line of thought.

3. I copied and pasted a selection from the original timeline into a new project, rendered it and transferred this to DVDA which then burnt the disc with nothing like this ghosting in sight.Apologies for not getting back sooner Richard. I've read and re-read your "testing" and John's input and needed to gather both of my brain cells together - always helps....

OK, here's my spin on it: Your No. 1 & 2 indicate that the error is Project and render-centric/specific. Additionally your no.3 points to the following, and in everything Sherlock Holmes the unthinkable has occurred. Vegas has badly referenced frames in a Project; in a Project made and created in a particular version of Vegas. We've had Black or missing media and "ghost-like" images occurring. Those of us who have persisted with VP beyond VP7 or VP8, meaning VP10 thru 11 and hopefully now none (fingers-doubly crossed here!) in VP12 have experienced this cross- or mis-referencing of media. If, as you point out in your 3. above, you can copy and paste into a FRESH project and NOT duplicate this ghosting then that would point to there NOT being a minute sliver of Media being present and being the culprit: Meaning what is copied IS copied, or rather the referencing has been corrected to what it SHOULD have been in the first place. Remember we've done the "Save your project and call it a different name!" advice.

Honestly? I don't think you've done anything wrong with your Project: you've done what you've always done. I think that the actual Project itself is or has fallen victim to a cross-referencing. You could run Edward Troxel's interrogator/investigator to ascertain ANY slivers of media under a certain length or gaps or . . whatever. But, and again, your copying and pasting into a fresh Project and NOT getting duplicate error is pointing towards the Project having this reference issue being "ironed-out".

If any of this makes sense to anybody, I'm delighted. Better yet Richard gets a partial, sane solution or standpoint.

Grazie

farss wrote on 2/17/2014, 1:19 AM
Doesn't explain how he cannot see the problem if he plays back the mpeg-2 file rendered out of the project. It's only after he makes that file into a DVD and plays that does he see the problem.

I'm pretty certain Richard's 3 provides a clue, copying a selection of events does not copy the track opacity setting.

Bob.

Grazie wrote on 2/17/2014, 1:54 AM
Bob I'm pretty certain Richard's 3 provides a clue, copying a selection of events does not copy the track opacity setting.

Yup, looks like we're getting somewhere. How about my idea on the blank/black/ghosting media? You've ignored that Bob?

Grazie

farss wrote on 2/17/2014, 2:23 AM
[I]"How about my idea on the blank/black/ghosting media?"[/I]

Sorry but I've read all your posts in this thread and can find nothing related to that.

Even so, I fail to see how the media used to record the data could have anything to do with this.
What's in the data stream is fixed as the project is rendered out and there's no way I know of to hide data in a mpeg-2 stream that would only be revealed by using different media to record the data stream onto.

Given all the facts as presented and assuming Richard has been looking carefully the only scenario that fits the facts is vision that's always there but obscured by crushed blacks or highlights.

Now in the interim another thought did enter my head.
It is possible to have two events in the same place on the timeline with Vegas and not see it on the project timeline. This usually happens because of how ripple edit works. I'd suggest apart from checking track and event opacity he also simply delete the event where the problem is happening to see if there's a phantom piece of media hiding behind the event.

Bob.
Grazie wrote on 2/17/2014, 2:33 AM
Grazie: "We've had Black or missing media and "ghost-like" images occurring"

I just copied from 2 posts back (?) the above to here, just for you Bob?

Grazie

farss wrote on 2/17/2014, 2:36 AM
Oh OK.
But the ghost like images were due to field order problems and the black media was visible in the rendered output.


Bob.
Richard Jones wrote on 2/17/2014, 3:26 AM
Many thanks to you all.

John

That's a very kind offer but I'm working with Vegas 12 Pro in 64bit so I don't think an upload would work.

I have previewed at Best (Full) and don't always see these ghosts although they do show through on some events. Good tip about the Preview setting which proves again that this is not a DVDA problem I think.

The ghosted image is more than a single frame repeating itself and is always part of an earlier event.

Grazie

I've been with Vegas since 6 and had every even numbered version since but have never encountered the problem you describe (lucky perhaps).

In my editing I have several crossfades lasting from between 1 and 3 seconds with countless others going for a few (say 6 to 17) frames along with a number of events just simply butted together, I've also got a couple of places where I've deliberately left perhaps half a second as blank (i.e. black) on the Timeline (e.g. at the Markers at the end/start of some Chapters).

And, yes, sanity did seem to be becoming an issue for me (or, at least, self-doubt and frustration!)

Bob

Many thanks for all that.

I've checked the opacity enveloped and all seem to be OK.

I've tried deleting an event but nothing shows beneath it so I don't think it's quite the overlay issue you are thinking about.

I've also tried identifying the clip in its original source in Project Media and bringing this back as the same event on the Timeline and this comes up OK with no ghosting
to be seen.


The whole thing just becomes curiouser and curiouser. I'm beginning to think that, unless I delete all the affected events, re-import them and apply all the various FX to them, I shall have to depend on the duplicated project solution. For the moment I feel reluctant to follow either of these routes as I won't be sure what it is I might have done which I can avoid in future. In other words, it would leave me with the fear that I might face the same problem again - ugghh!.

Ricahrd
Grazie wrote on 2/17/2014, 3:55 AM
It really is sounding like Vegas has lost its way in referencing the Event/Media on that Timeline.

Now, what happens next?

Grazie

set wrote on 2/17/2014, 4:38 AM
Richard,

What video format of your sources is?

If it is VOB MPEG2 or MPEG2 DVD, it could be the issue as sometimes MPEG2 DVD format is, in my own word, 'not stable'.
Previously when I'm working with this, sometimes random other frames appear, but I can notice that problem during editing, played back in timeline, and during rendering.

Other than that, still a bit difficult to imagining what is really happening unless I/we see them.
farss wrote on 2/17/2014, 4:55 AM
[I]" I have previewed at Best (Full) and don't always see these ghosts although they do show through on some events"[/I]

Ah, so this is very different to where we were at in the beginning.

Can you identify where the ghost comes from?
Is it in the project media list, if so how many instances?
What happens if you completely delete it from the project media list (zap it)?

Check edit details as well for the clip that's appearing as the ghost.

Bob.
paul_w wrote on 2/17/2014, 5:50 AM
I knew immediately i was incorrect when i said
'either way it looks like a DVDA problem'..
as soon as you said
'2. I did as you suggested and burned the disc from within Vegas but again the same problem showed through.'
We have to start somewhere when presented with little information, and initially it did look that way.
And i also agree given later information, that DVD media type can be ruled out in this case too.

Now as Bob as pointed out, on closer inspection, you can actually see ghosting on the timeline even though it is less obvious than when burned to DVD. This does change things indeed.

You should be able to find a ghost point where its visible, locate cursor to it and expand the time line to that point. Try turning any plugins on and off associated with the media clip at that point, you already checked opacities for 100%, is it happening after or during a transition? If so, what type. And would it be possible to take a screen shot of the ghosting straight from Vegas and post it here? That would help too.

Paul.
Grazie wrote on 2/17/2014, 5:57 AM
The game's a foot! I think we're onto it Dr Watson!

G

Richard Jones wrote on 2/17/2014, 6:02 AM
Set [

The source material is an AVI file from a Hard Drive. It was originally Standard 8mm Cine Film which I had professionally transferred to AVI via a Telecine Machine which has corrected the frame rate differential. I've had ten or so of these done in the past and never encountered the same problem.

Bob

Yes, the ghosts are always of an event that appears earlier in the Timeline with a different ghost occurring each time the problem shows itself (i.e. it's not the same ghost).

The ghost scenes are part of a twenty minute sequence which I have to open in the Trimmer to make my selections for adding to the Timeline so I don't think it would be wise of me to delete this or I might find myself having to re-do everything from scratch again. As I said when I delete the problem event from the Timeline and re-insert it as a selection from the Trimmer it displays properly.

I've confirmed that the Compositing Mode for each track is Source Alpha and I have again checked that the levels are at 100% (and slid them back to zero and this behaves normally).

Richard
paul_w wrote on 2/17/2014, 6:42 AM
Cant think of any possible way for a previous event to be seen as a ghost at a later time point unless you have another track running along side it with a time shift. Spooky.
Are you using more than one video track in this project? I can only think the video is showing through from another track which contains previous events.

Paul.