Thanks Matt, got it now.
Might take me a day or two before I can fully look into it.

In the interim I did find from a reply by David to a post on his blog that for best results you should be using their software to do a "first light" render out from the camera original.

One poster pointed out one ommision to Cineform Studio was the lack of WB adjustment, strange that isn't there because based on what I now know of how Pro Tune works that should yield better results making WB adjustments in Studio than after the default decode into Rec 709.

Bob.

Thanks Bob,

I did some more experimentation and used the free cineform studio to convert a 660 MB raw pro tune video using the options

1) MOV format
2) Quality - High

This produced a MOV file with an unbelievable 186 mpbs and size of 2.34GB. I copied the media info details below

I'm not great at noticing image differences however I'd say the MOV file looks sharper than the original.

I then tried playing through the PS3 expecting the stutter might go away however it didn't even play MOV on the PS3 media player. However that's a separate issue.

Video
ID : 1
Format : Cineform
Codec ID : CFHD
Codec ID/Info : CineForm High-Definition (HD) wavelet codec
Duration : 1mn 48s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 185 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 59.940 fps
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 1.486
Stream size : 2.34 GiB (99%)
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2012-12-28 20:54:10
Tagged date : UTC 2012-12-28 20:57:49

"I'm not great at noticing image differences however I'd say the MOV file looks sharper than the original."
No surprises there. David does point out in his blog that Pro Tune doesn't add much sharpening because it's pretty easy to add it in post and very difficult to remove it if added in the camera.

To put it simply, think of Pro Tune as recording a "negative", the same as is done in a film camera. That needs to be developed. Cineform Studio is how you develop your negative. Many tricks were used in the developing process to change how the image looked from coaxing an extra stop or two to bleach bypass. Once done you couldn't undo it. Of course with digital you can by going back to the camera original.

Which I hope answers your original question as I understand it.
If you want to preserve everything recorded in the original data from the camera then your best option is to archive the original files.

I'll say again that if you wnt to get the best possible result from shooting Pro Tune and you want to make significant adjustments to how the image looks then you should use Cineform Studio to make the adjustments. How much that gains you from a camera such as the Go Pro I don't really know for sure myself. From what David is saying it could be quite significant and certainly worth experimenting with. I can say with confidence there's more work involved and there's going to be more data to wrangle.

Bob.

Thanks Bob,

Yes I can see Pro Tune is really doing very little and simple capturing in RAW form. This is a great idea however in relation to archiving the original files I was hoping I could just do all my trims from the source footage, render in the same format and then archive that resulting file first before any other conversion.

The trouble is out of say 160 GB raw pro tune files I might have only used say 10 GB in my final trimmed clip. I would have preferred to archive this rather than each individual file e.g. one 5 GB long when I only use 0.5% of it.

in relation to "and you want to make significant adjustments to how the image looks then you should use Cineform Studio to make the adjustments" I can't see any adjustments to make on the free version though other than quality low / med and high. Perhaps there is a paid version which allows you to do more.
Although it seems a shame to have to buy an additional video editing package when I have Vegas.

Do you have any suggestions on what format I should then render the MOV file to for optimal quality on the PS3? Perhaps I should start a separate thread for this however it is related

"Perhaps there is a paid version which allows you to do more. "

There certainly is at $99 or $299 off the top of my head.
Just what more that enables you to do I'm not exactly certain of. I have to say this has been an ongoing issue I've had with Cineform, too much hyperbole and not enough technical details so one can get a good handle on what you get for your money.

"Although it seems a shame to have to buy an additional video editing package when I have Vegas"

I wouldn't call it an additional editing package as such but yes, I take your point.

"Do you have any suggestions on what format I should then render the MOV file to for optimal quality on the PS3?"

I'd use H.264 at the highest bitrate the PS3 can handle. H.264 perfroms very well as a delivery codec and depending on the container seems to play on just about everything that's been designed in the last few years.

Bob.

Sounds like a GoPro Hero2 is going to be plenty of camera for me, and there are some great prices this winter.
I'll probably be in a nursing home before 4K and ProTune acquisition formats are going to make any sense for producing consumer delivery videos.

Thanks Bob,

Actually I was mistaken the go cine form studio free edition does provide white balance and various other controls however it's in the "Edit" stage. It seems you do an initial "Import" which converts the MP4 to MOV which as we can see above in the media info seems to change the codec and increase the file size vastly. The edit stage allows you to control these options and then export back to MP4.

I assume this means I could process in Vegas either after "Import" or after "Import" and "Edit" with the final MP4 file. This sounds like a heck of a lot of different compression layers to get to the resulting final file format. Wouldn't the quality be effecting with this number of encodings i.e..

1) CineForm Studio - ProTune MP4 -> MOV
2) CineForm Studio - MOV > MP4
3) Vegas - MP4 -> M2TS ( for PS3 )

Still I'll try a few different options and see where I can find the best image quality.

I also read in various other internet articles that Blu Ray and consequently the PS3 has a theoretical maximum bit rate so this should be my maximum value i.e. 40 mbps video.

"Wouldn't the quality be effecting with this number of encodings i.e.. "

Both those codecs at that bitrate are going to be so close to lossless I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it.

I still haven't had the time to play around with this myself as I'm on a time ciritcal mission however I would have thought steps one and two wouldn't require an intermediate render e.g.
1) is select the footage and if you want render it out as is.
2) is make adjustments to what you selected in 1) and render it out with those adjustments.

Bob.

You said: "As I mentioned, you need not use the Cineform standalone editor. Once installed, he GoPro Cineform codec is fully accessible within Vegas as a custom AVI renderer."

Using vegas 12, latest gopro cineform installed, I do not see any gopro cineform render templates? Maybe I do not understand the workflow. I have been just editing the hero3 black camera mp4 files directly in vegas, bypassing cineform studio, then rendering out to mainconcept mp4 for youtube. Am I loosing potential quality?
Thanks

By using the Studio it is possible to color correct and add sharpness/ blur or a particular look to the file in a lossless manor .Because the changes do not change the file it has the advantage of not losing quality, and remembering without saving (rendering), change on the fly, a lot quicker final render (because you're not using Sony color correction) and depending on input working at a higher bit rate.
Working in the Studio space also gets you past the "Sony displays in 0-255" problems. Processed thru Studio what you see (in Studio) falls onto the time line conformed to .709 without the need to turn on/off levels.
I use this workflow with all cameras not just the GoPro.

Actually after all that converting from MP4 -> MOV and back to MP4 I then dragged the files on the timeline and it appears to crash Vegas whilst previewing :)

I maybe purchasing a new computer system soon actually so won't pursue this much until then. Mine is currently 3 years old

Here's a frame from Matt's clip; unpacked and converted in Cineform Studio, then color corrected and leveled by mói in Vegas (just an 8 bit Movie Studio project).
I did this example for a defiant Movie Studio user, who thought the conversion was too much trouble ;?)

Thanks Musicvid

So in relation to my last post

"Actually after all that converting from MP4 -> MOV and back to MP4 I then dragged the files on the timeline and it appears to crash Vegas whilst previewing :)"

Did you do similar in the latest build and see no crash? Or something slightly different?

Your converted shot looks amazing full of colour and far less dull than the original

Matt,
I'm using Pro 8.0c and have never had an issue with Cineform, going back several versions.

Actually, after converting, I did very little in Vegas. Added a tiny bit of blue, and bumped the overall gamma .10 I think. Amazing that it unpacks to full 10 bit 4:2:2 in Cineform. The unpacked (8 bit 4:2:0 gamma 1.0) is practically useless for editing afaict.
Interesting also how the two behave differently in 32 bit float projects.

Still learning about this stuff. Any more camera clips you want to post will be welcomed.

Thanks Musicvid,

I don't have version 8.0c otherwise I'd love to do this

Is anyone converting go pro 3 pro tune files using the latest v12.0? What workflow are you using?

Matt,
I did but one conversion in Cineform (GoPro Studio) and brought the AVI file to the Vegas timeline.

No back and forth as you describe. Why invoke Quicktime at all when it has so many issues?

bump

Sorry I didnt notice this. I don't use Quicktime now. In fact I reverted to simply turning Pro Tune off completely as I have shot video in the new Go Pro 4 Black without this.

Good to know, Matt.
The bump was to give background to the other thread, and I know from our conversations that you know what you're doing.

Still got that sample footage or some from your Hero4?

Sure I just came back from a ski trip and shot this in 4K 30fps with the Black v4

Still looking for Hero4 Protune sample out of the camera for bit depth / color space tests.
But if you don't have, it's ok.

Right,. In hindsight I shot so much video hours a day I should have captured some. I'd have been interested too.