Good delivery format/container to send to client?

Jeff9329 wrote on 3/21/2010, 5:50 PM
I need to deliver some interview footage to an ad agency for some interviews I shot.

I asked the agency what format they wanted the footage delivered in, but they were not exactly sure. He was not a video guy, just an ad executive, but seemed to think his editors could work with anything. However, I think thats unlikely, i.e. FCP cant handle AVCHD without the full package (of course Vegas can).

Is a HD 422 1920X1080 60i 50 Mbps 24bit PCM uncompressed audio MXF file fully compatable with FCP? I know it is with Vegas. I would prefer to render the AVCHD out to a MXF in Vegas (a render to sync audio and make a few basic cuts was needed).

I need to send this out tonight as Im going on travel, so I dont have time to mess with the ad guy any more. I was told the destination is DVD, if that matters.

MXF it?

Thanks for any feedback.

Comments

Jay Gladwell wrote on 3/21/2010, 7:06 PM

Do a forum search for "DNxHD" to learn more.

PerroneFord wrote on 3/21/2010, 8:47 PM
Either than or M-Jpeg.
Coursedesign wrote on 3/21/2010, 10:16 PM
Yes, and don't deliver AVCHD to anyone for anything, too many variants.

If it needs to be compact, H.264 is your friend. Unreal quality at high bit rates.

For eventual DVD out, shouldn't you send them a DVD or an SD clip?
NickHope wrote on 3/21/2010, 10:23 PM
I've done a lot of work recently on the best format to send to Mac people. I'm now sending Quicktime 7, Motion JPEG-B, quality 90% encoded from Vegas. If it's progressive footage then you can use Photo JPEG instead. You'll need to buy Quicktime Pro, and there is incompatibility between the latest version of Quicktime and Vegas, so download 7.6.2 instead.

Send them a link to MPEG Streamclip for if they want to convert it to something else. We're finding that it doesn't change the footage luminosity during conversion, whereas Compressor on the Mac is making my clips lighter. http://www.squared5.com/
Spot|DSE wrote on 3/21/2010, 10:52 PM
If source is AVCHD, the render to ,.mxf is very fast. Using DnX or Cineform is slower in Vegas. You'll lose/gain/change nothing in going to .mxf. It's a container that every NLE on the planet can read.
PerroneFord wrote on 3/21/2010, 10:55 PM
Nick, any reason you specify the B variant instead of the A variant? You actually give up something with the B variant so I was wondering why you chose this one.
PerroneFord wrote on 3/21/2010, 10:58 PM
I thought FCP had issues with MXF? Even Clipbrowser won't wrap into MXF for Macs choosing MOV instead. In fact, if I remember correctly, FCP won't open an MXF from the clipbrowser software. And there are two incompatible variants of the MXF container, so it's not really universal.
NickHope wrote on 3/22/2010, 1:04 AM
>> Nick, any reason you specify the B variant instead of the A variant? You actually give up something with the B variant so I was wondering why you chose this one. <<

Perrone, as far as I can tell from a quick web search, the only difference between MJPEG A and MJPEG B is that MJPEG A supports markers in the bitstream whereas MJPEG B does not... And I don't need markers.

I originally chose the "B" flavour because it fits Pond5's submission requirements.

Last week I sent a Mac-based stock footage house (not Pond5) some MJPEG B clips at 90% quality, encoded in Vegas 8.0c from my HDV 1080-50i and 1080-60i footage. I upscaled to 1920x1080 as this is how they like to keep their masters. On the Mac they converted them to their master format, Apple ProRes422HQ, using MPEG Streamclip. I then put their ProRes file onto the Vegas Pro timeline under my original m2t clip and compared by muting the upper track. The difference is barely detectable. And this is was the only workflow we found that didn't mess with the luminosity or colours. For example when they converted my original m2t clips the contrast increased hugely, as if it was doing an unnecessary conversion from sRGB to sRGB. Admittedly we didn't try MXF.
Yoyodyne wrote on 3/22/2010, 2:40 AM
Great discussion guys, this is very helpful info!
Jeff9329 wrote on 3/22/2010, 6:32 AM
Thanks for all the replies.

I sent it in Sony MXF and NTSC DVD Widescreen with a loose WAV file.

The MXF is very fast to create and lossless enough for this project. I really like the 24 bit audio in MXF for interviews, even though audio will presumably go to 16 bit.

As far as space, it dosent really matter because the projects are too big for anything but a hard drive anyway.
PerroneFord wrote on 3/22/2010, 6:35 AM
Nick, just a question here... but have you used Jpeg2000? Specifically Motion Jpeg2000?
PerroneFord wrote on 3/22/2010, 6:38 AM
Please update this thread once they get the file. I am VERY interested in whether or not they will be able to read the MXF file. I know that Sony / Avid use incompatible MXF file types. I am quite curious which variant FCP can read. Especially since Avid runs on a Mac, and the Sony software will NOT wrap to it's MXF for the Mac.
rs170a wrote on 3/22/2010, 8:24 AM
Especially since Avid runs on a Mac...

Huh?
Our Journalism lab is getting six seats of Media Composer and one Nitris box and they're all running on Dell PCs.

Mike
jetdv wrote on 3/22/2010, 8:34 AM
Mike, Avid, like Premiere, runs on both Mac and PC.
PerroneFord wrote on 3/22/2010, 8:41 AM
Sorry, I thought this was common knowledge.
rs170a wrote on 3/22/2010, 8:42 AM
Edward, I realize that.
It's just that Perrone's statement could be misconstrued as Avid being for a Mac only.

Mike
Jeff9329 wrote on 3/22/2010, 12:19 PM
Do a forum search for "DNxHD" to learn more.

I read the threads on DNxHD and it dosen't seem to be an "all-puprose" container/codec due to lack of progressive. A broadcast standard, I guess so.

For advertising, it seems you need progressive for online Flash video, and the broadcast/DVD is rendered interlaced. I shoot mostly 30P for the native capture. Im still bummed that the Blu-Ray standard did not include a 30P variant (where HD-DVD did support 30P). 30P seems doomed as a future HD broadcast standard anytime soon. End rambling.

I will post what happens with the MXF files later.
Spot|DSE wrote on 3/22/2010, 12:38 PM
I've had no difficulty opening .mxf files on a very broad number of Apple systems with FCP. Of course, the Sony plug must be installed, so the easiest thing to do is include it on the HDD or data DVD used to xport the media to another system. This is done on at least a weekly basis with a couple clients we string for. Same thing at broadcast clients; they're shipping internally via .mxf file generated in Vegas.
True, there are two variants of the package, but that doesn't make it more nor less compatible. Premiere, Avid, FCP, Edius all open the Vegas-packaged .mxf file without issue.
If the source were different than AVCHD, I might consider another codec, but with HDV such as 10 Connect or ABC Tampa Bay, or AVCHD...I'm gonna run with .mxf every time.
http://www.abcactionnews.com/content/news/local/story/North-Carolina-man-killed-in-skydiving-accident/lXYsHf1fnkiso7x1zB--og.cspx was converted in under a minute and on the air from the truck.
PerroneFord wrote on 3/22/2010, 12:41 PM
This is incorrect and I am not sure where you got the notion that DNxHD is not progressive. It's primary purpose is as a film intermediate. It was developed as a progressive codec.

PerroneFord wrote on 3/22/2010, 12:44 PM
Great to know... because I sure as heck cannot open an Avid MXF in Vegas... The compatibility has always been a nervous subject for me.
Coursedesign wrote on 3/22/2010, 1:38 PM
Broadcast Engineering Magazine article about MXF:

...The founding MXF task force was led by Bruce Devlin, then from Snell & Wilcox, and included Oliver Morgan (from MetaGlue), Jim Wilkinson (from Sony) and Bob Edge (Thomson/Grass Valley), who were all faced with similar customer complaints: How to get a Panasonic or Sony camera to talk to a Snell standards converter, or a Grass Valley server to talk to an Avid edit workstation, and so on.

My summary:

MXF has similarities with the ATSC standard, which has elements that can be used to transmit a working picture and sound. It also has 17 format options that few (if any) manufacturers have bothered to implement, so interoperability is not assured.
Jay Gladwell wrote on 3/22/2010, 3:07 PM

I'm not having any problems with DNxHD creating progressive files. I think you must have missed something.

NickHope wrote on 3/23/2010, 2:54 AM
>> Nick, just a question here... but have you used Jpeg2000? Specifically Motion Jpeg2000? <<

No Perrone, I haven't used that. I don't see the word "Motion" as an option for JPEG2000 in Vegas 8.0c.

I just some testing, and MXF rendered from HDV at 50 Mbps does look not much different from the original when compared on the Vegas timeline, and is less than half the file size of my 90% MJPEG-B files.

On the downside, besides a plug-in being required on the Mac, my MXF files won't open in MPEG Streamclip on the PC, and Windows Media Player wont' play them properly. VLC is OK with them though.

Having had frames cropped from the ends of my HDV clips when viewed in FCP etc., not to mention erratic HDV behaviour across different releases of Vegas, long-GOP formats such as MXF worry me where cross-platform compatibility is vital. I feel happier with an intra-frame format like MJPEG, and take the hit on file size.

By the way, is this the plug-in that a Mac user would need in order to open a file rendered to MXF in Vegas? https://servicesplus.us.sony.biz/sony-software-model-PDZKP1.aspx
PerroneFord wrote on 3/23/2010, 8:29 AM
Nick,

Jpeg2000 was put forth as the new standard to replace Jpeg back in around 2000. Hence the name. Unlike Jpeg, it uses wavelet compression. You will be familiar with wavelet compression from things like Cineform, and REDCode.

There is a variant called Motion-Jpeg2000, but really this is what you are seeing in the Vegas options. The freebie included with Vegas doesn't give you any options, but Jpeg2000 has a multitude of options in it and it is an AMAZING codec. Best I've ever seen. It carries it's own proxy (at different resolutions if desired), metadata, and it doesn't give blocking artifacts like DCT based codecs. The file sizes can offer incredible quality at lower bit-rates which is why Cineform can do what it does, and why REDCode can put 4K images in the size of files we generally associate with 1080p.

I had gone to it for archiving a year ago, but I am now using it for pretty much everything. If I have to round trip with the Macs, I still use DNxHD, but JP2K is an order of magnitude more efficient. It's also an open ISO standard which meets my governmental archival needs.